a wee moan

mousey

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 15, 2010
2,210
254
43
NE Scotland
I seem to remember in an art class someone saying that [for the sake of the argument] you paint a picture in the style of monet, and sell it as your take of a painting in the style of monet then your alright. If you paint a picture in the style of monet and then try to sell it actually as a monet then your being a bit naughty and deserve what you get.

Now I could do some painting in the style of monet but they wouldn't sell cause I'm carp - that is where the advantage of being a good craftsman is, you can take folks having a go and it not to bother you cause at the end of the day your better than them:)
 

Everything Mac

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 30, 2009
3,131
96
37
Scotland
Hamish,

I've had an absolutely shocking few days, money is tight for the first time since I left Uni, the car just cost me the best part of £400 to get on the road. I've been to the post office three times to try and get the road tax sorted after forgetting one item or another and then being told what you have is the wrong bloody thing. I've had to declare it off the road for a bit!

We've a new puppy in the house as well as puppy sitting a lab. Aka demon from hell.
Quite frankly I'm on the verge of going a bit postal....

it could be worse mate!


so look at it this way: in a very short time you've built up not only a viable business but a desirable product which has real value. So much so that as toddy points out "imitation is the finest form of flattery" - frankly mate I'd take it as a sign you're on the right track and let it go over you're head. Your "competition" won't be at the same level you will be in ten years bud...

I'd love to be in your position. - with the blacksmithing side of my life I have to sit quietly and see people sell stuff which screams inferiority and appalling craftsmenship. What rubs salt in the wound is that many think this work is next to godly.
There's not a day goes by that I don't see some ironwork or other and think that I could have made that better! I'm not saying I'm at the top of the food chain by any means...

The things we make aren't a daily requirement mate, they're a luxury, a treat; count yourself lucky you're making something that people will gladly part with their cash for.


On that note these two bloomin' animals have finally decided to settle down, he's on her bed and she's on the floor.... Breathe Andy breath....
 

Black Sheep

Native
Jun 28, 2007
1,539
0
North Yorkshire
photobucket.com
Hamish,

Sorry to say this but take a deep breath and get over it.............

You might not of been on BCUK long enough to remember but a while ago someone kindly purchased a number of people's Leather work (mine included), blatantly copied it (or rather a sweat shop in India) and started selling it on his web sites. He also copied stuff from British blades and worst of all passed it all off as his own.

Unfortunately after a lot of research and I mean a lot there was vey little that could be done about him copying our designs. He copied mine stitch for stitch. There is very little you can do unless yours is a registered design and then you need to prove its yours.

At the end of the day there is only so many ways to make a sheath, belt or pouch and we all draw inspiration from things we've seen, be it on here, the net or books.

Just think how Ray Mears feels about all those woody clones -But a RM woody is a RM woody - Just as your leather work is yours and it's your reputation that sells it.

I like to think of it as "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" if someone can be bothered to copy your work you must be doing something right.

Enjoy your trip and stop worrying about it, if you reputation is as great as you claim it will still be here when you get back.

Atb

Rich
 
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Wayland

Hárbarðr
You do not automatically own copyright. Things have to be put into place first.

I must say that for someone using images, your ignorance of the law is staggering.

I dare you to steal one of my images for your business. I could do with a new van and a nice juicy, unbeatable, law suit would sort that out nicely.

I even know just the barrister I need for it as well.
 

widu13

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 9, 2008
2,334
19
Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt
I must say that for someone using images, your ignorance of the law is staggering.

I dare you to steal one of my images for your business. I could do with a new van and a nice juicy, unbeatable, law suit would sort that out nicely.

I even know just the barrister I need for it as well.

Chill out bud. I personally don't use any images and my comments are my own and not connected with work. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and have learned something. No need to get upset over it. My works images are of products not anything else. Certainly my web research seems to initimate that whilst copyright is immediately owned it also states that unless there is proof of ownership then it means nothing.

Anyhoo, I'll bow out corrected now. My input was only to help the OP realise that it's nothing to get his knickers into a twist over and then everyone else jumps in with "how very dare you". Ah well. :goodluck:
 

Dreadhead

Bushcrafter through and through
You are all completely correct and I think I was just having a bad day. have just started blacksmithing so have put it all to the back of my mind. apologies for my wee moan, shall indeed grow a second skin and just get on with it :)
 
N

Nomad

Guest
Chill out bud. I personally don't use any images and my comments are my own and not connected with work. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and have learned something. No need to get upset over it. My works images are of products not anything else. Certainly my web research seems to initimate that whilst copyright is immediately owned it also states that unless there is proof of ownership then it means nothing.

The onus is on the user of an image to exercise due diligence to establish whether it is in the pubic domain or otherwise free to use for the intended purpose. It is not on the photographer to 'prove' that they own it, such that you can do what you like with it unless and until such 'proof' is forthcoming. Your earlier post...

At work we use images gathered from the internet. Many businesses do this. If we are contacted by the owner of the images and they can evidence ownership i.e. the raw file, then we remove the image.

...implies that the practice is to take what you like, use it, and only act (remove it) if you are caught. If this is so, then the exercise of due diligence is severely lacking. The practice of using and only removing when caught does not mitigate the liabilities you may face vis-à-vis usage of the image prior to the removal. If an image owner can show that you used an image without permission, whether or not you are still using it, then you can be sued.
 

Dougster

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 13, 2005
5,254
238
The banks of the Deveron.
Hamish,

Sorry to say this but take a deep breath and get over it.............

You might not of been on BCUK long enough to remember but a while ago someone kindly purchased a number of people's Leather work (mine included), blatantly copied it (or rather a sweat shop in India) and started selling it on his web sites. He also copied stuff from British blades and worst of all passed it all off as his own.

Unfortunately after a lot of research and I mean a lot there was vey little that could be done about him copying our designs. He copied mine stitch for stitch. There is very little you can do unless yours is a registered design and then you need to prove its yours.

At the end of the day there is only so many ways to make a sheath, belt or pouch and we all draw inspiration from things we've seen, be it on here, the net or books.

Just think how Ray Mears feels about all those woody clones -But a RM woody is a RM woody - Just as your leather work is yours and it's your reputation that sells it.

I like to think of it as "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" if someone can be bothered to copy your work you must be doing something right.

Enjoy your trip and stop worrying about it, if you reputation is as great as you claim it will still be here when you get back.

Atb

Rich

This has happened since, there are makers still copying (to the last detail) the work of others. You'll still be the one at the top of the chain for your style. It only really becomes properly galling when the new folks think the guy doing the copying is the bloke that did it all along.

Everyone knows your style but I promise, it isn't just you.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery apparently.
 

Hibrion

Maker
Jan 11, 2012
1,230
8
Ireland
I can understand how it can be annoying to feel copied, but it might be worth doing a little research before accusing anyone.

Like any leather worker, you have your own style of finish, stitching, tooling, design, etc. To be honest, I like your work, but I have to say a fair bit of it is similar to stuff from skyravenwolf and there are tonnes of leather products based on realistic leaf patterns for sale on etsy etc. I wouldn't accuse you of copying them, because although elements are similar, you've made them your self and have but your 'stamp' on them, so to speak.

I think the possibles pouches are a lost cause. Most people who work leather have made one at some stage and there is only so much you can do with them. A quick google of sporran will yield an example of every possible version of those pouches, with fancy additions made with edge braiding, buttons, toggles, and tooling. At the end of the day, none of us can claim to own the rights to a double loop stitch, an antler toggle, a native tribal design, a celtic knot, etc.

For example, I've made a fair amount of products for the motorcycle community: products for the bikes themselves and for people to wear. In general what people want are variations of standard themes such as skulls, native american stuff, eagles, celtic art (particularly popular here in Ireland), flames, etc. While there are other people doing similar work, the only selling point I can claim above others is the attention to detail I offer in my tooling and the quality of the finished product as a whole. Hell, I've made products only to discover at a later date that someone else came up with almost the same thing independently on the other side of the world.

I can sympathise with how you feel, but it's a common enough feeling.
 

ammo

Settler
Sep 7, 2013
827
8
by the beach
Hamish, enjoy the compliment. After this thread, the demand for your work will sky rocket. Your a talented man and yor skills will always be in demand. I make my own knives, I love them they work but they are fugly ! I look forward to the day that work inspires immitation.
Enjoy Norway, your in the middle or at the beginning of an amazing experience. Draw some artistic inspiration from your surroundings.
Limited editions---The Norway collection!! Put me down for one.
Anyway stay safe, best regards
K
 

Jonbodthethird

Settler
Sep 5, 2013
548
0
Kettering/Stilton
Nice to see for a change on a forum people don't start arguing and making things unnecessary. I've been a member if a few forums and I hate how things get awkward. Not on here it seems! And as for copying I think it's good to do that because it encourages makers to go that extra step to ensure competitiveness. That's the only way items can develop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Graham_S

Squirrely!
Feb 27, 2005
4,041
66
51
Saudi Arabia
As I recall (and I'm a bit foggy on the details) a company took images someone had posted on BCUK and used them on their website without permission.
The member who owned the images managed to get compensation from the company.
I think it was Spamel (long since sent off for bad behavior) and Snugpack/Winds-west, but I could be misremembering.

Anyway, back on topic.
While I sympathise Hamish, I've seen plenty of stuff like your designs (including beard combs) in museums and reference books.
It's nice work, well crafted, and certainly to be proud of, but it's by no means unique enough to be annoyed about someone making something similar.
Sorry.
 

jackcbr

Native
Sep 25, 2008
1,561
0
51
Gatwick, UK
www.pickleimages.co.uk
To chip in or not to chip in...

I work in the graphics industry and am using photographs and images from many sources all day long. My understanding is, you open yourself to legal action if you take an image from any source without the owners permission ( the owner of the image). However, the subject matter may also have ownership or be trademarked and then you would need their permission to use that too.

The comment regarding the angel of the north, if I was to take a picture of it and reproduced it for profit or reward, by rights I should get, in writing, consent to use it. The same goes for people in pictures. Up to a certain number of recognisable faces, I have to check that a model release document has been signed for how I intend to use their likeness. Now as I deal with image libraries, this is a very straight forward thing to do.

Surprisingly many things can be trade marked, logo designs, slogans and even buildings. We once used an image of Sydney Opera House from an image library but failed to check its status. Latterly it was discovered that it (the building) was trade marked and we did not have permission to use it. Lesson learnt! No legal action taken, just had to remove it. And this is where the system gets a bit grey. More often than not, if you use the image or likeness of something in a good light, the owners tend to leave you alone. Use it in a negative way and they may contact you to stop using it, or pay the relevant image usage costs. I've not heard of many cases making it to court, nor mega bucks being paid for unlawful use.

As Widu stated, their use of images from the net is of products, products they sell, images taken by the manufacturer. Technically, this is wrong to do so. In common practice, the manufactures don't care as you are stocking their item and more than likely with a quick email you could get the image directly from them (in practice, about a week after you don't need it anymore, but that just may be me). They are more likely to come down on you if you don't stock their item, but are using it to advertise a cheap knock off.

then we move on to image rights on the net. I believe it was stated some posts back that an image needs to carry a copywriter mark to be protected. this is more or less correct. If you really want to make sure your images are protected, then yes, copywriter mark them, but you must also be able to prove ownership of the image (a negative was great for this, but these days it needs to be the digital raw file). However, the internet is so vast, it's damn near impossible to police.

then you move on to intellectual property. Who owns the idea of something and what constitutes enough of a change from one idea to another to be described as an original idea. Moreover we are now into the realm of patents, which is not my area, so I will shut up.

with regards to copying of designs shown on this forum again falls into a grey area. If you have posted up a design of something into a public forum without trade marking or patenting, then you have gifted it to the world I'm afraid. And it is a dilemma for the makers on here, you want to showcase your work to get sales, but by doing so in a public way, you no longer control who has seen or can copy that design.

This is often seen in the fashion world. The big designers showcase their latest designs and about a week later a diluted form of it is on the high street. What makes the original stand apart from the clones and wannabes is the quality of the craftsmanship, Dreadhead has by the bucket load.


So I've rambled on, but I will finish with a little personal aside. Be carful trying to pass off something as your own. I once interviewed someone for a designers job and they showed me some examples of their work. One really caught my eye. I enquired about it, when did you design this, is this solely your work, tell me about the project, etc. after five minutes of the designer getting quite excited about the design being their original idea etc, I stopped them and got my own portfolio out and showed them the exact same design I had done. One very red faced applicant was not surprised to hear they hadn't got the job.
 

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