a point to be made

[bushcraftbob]

For me Time is the biggest issue as why i take a fair bit of gear in to the woods.

If i am lucky enough to have spare day/night in the woods, i would rather sling the tarp up in 5 minutes and then have the rest of the day to chill and watch wildlife and just enjoy being in the woods.

If i spent the whole day gathering sticks and leaves for shelter and gathering nettles for cordage, and bracken for mattress, and wood for the bow drill etc etc, i would not have time left to just sit and enjoy being in the woods and practise other skills.

 

[Dougster]

Is it a middle class hobby????? Yes, overall I would say it is although there are some working class oiks here I suppose.

I'm sorry mate, and I use mate properly. That is the best bit of twaddle you have come up with. There is a certain mentality in all people which saves us making mistakes in kit so looking at what works for others, but bringing class into it is silly.

You often support the 'cheap stuff is just as good as expensive stuff' theory which I have to disagree with. On the side of Angels Peak in February when it was going dark and -8 my Dad took out his Aldi head torch to (surprise) find it didn't work, my £30 Petzl was fine. I wasn't I had to follow the sillhouette in front of me.

My friend bought a therma rest clone to have it split and leave him in a bad night, my 8 year old one is great.

You get what you pay for and you pay for what you want. If you earn the money through your own efforts and you take yourself off camping you have the right to wear and do what you like (within bounds of the law and basic manners).

If someone feels they have the right to tell me what I need to take camping or not then I respect the fact they are voicing their opinion, they also need to accept my right to completely ignore them.

Hope to pick this up over a beer soon.

 

[santaman2000]

...You get what you pay for and you pay for what you want. If you earn the money through your own efforts and you take yourself off camping you have the right to wear and do what you like (within bounds of the law and basic manners)...

Within the bounds of law? Yes, I'll agree with that.
Basic "manners"? Well, if we change that word to "morality" or even "fairness" or "civility" I'll agree with it as well; but if you're somewhere where "manners" matter, then you just ain't in the bush yet.

 

[Bushwhacker]

I wish we were sat round a campfire discussing this.

 

[santaman2000]

...How could you possibly enjoy being cold, wet and hungry.

I was born cold, wet, hungry, crying, naked and scared. Then things got worse.

 

[santaman2000]

I wish we were sat round a campfire discussing this.

LOL. With all our gear.

 

[Toddy]

Within the bounds of law? Yes, I'll agree with that.
Basic "manners"? Well, if we change that word to "morality" or even "fairness" or "civility" I'll agree with it as well; but if you're somewhere where "manners" matter, then you just ain't in the bush yet.

I suspect that this is more a common language with different interpretations tbh.
Manners here is simply courtesy; courtesy given and expected. It's its own morality built in

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Maggot]

I wish we were sat round a campfire discussing this.

How would one carry a large campfire from the Audi to the woods though? Surely it would ruin the proofing on the Berghaus wouldn't it?

 

[santaman2000]

Someone mentioned their ideal camping would be a 1920s era safari with bearers and a fitting tent camp with full meal. Sometimes I long for that as well; It makes it more of an expedition with some actual purpose other than simply "playing' in the woods. For me it would be more of an Indiana Jones type expedition. Or a guided hunting or fishing trip in the Mountain West; a proper one using a train of pack horses. Those are still very much alive.

 

[santaman2000]

I suspect that this is more a common language with different interpretations tbh.
Manners here is simply courtesy; courtesy given and expected. It's its own morality built in

cheers,
Toddy

Fair enough. I'll agree using that definition.

 

[Toddy]

How would one carry a large campfire from the Audi to the woods though? Surely it would ruin the proofing on the Berghaus wouldn't it?

I have an oildrum firebowl with a handle though

M

 

[rik_uk3]

I'm sorry mate, and I use mate properly. That is the best bit of twaddle you have come up with. There is a certain mentality in all people which saves us making mistakes in kit so looking at what works for others, but bringing class into it is silly.

You often support the 'cheap stuff is just as good as expensive stuff' theory which I have to disagree with. On the side of Angels Peak in February when it was going dark and -8 my Dad took out his Aldi head torch to (surprise) find it didn't work, my £30 Petzl was fine. I wasn't I had to follow the sillhouette in front of me.

My friend bought a therma rest clone to have it split and leave him in a bad night, my 8 year old one is great.

You get what you pay for and you pay for what you want. If you earn the money through your own efforts and you take yourself off camping you have the right to wear and do what you like (within bounds of the law and basic manners).

If someone feels they have the right to tell me what I need to take camping or not then I respect the fact they are voicing their opinion, they also need to accept my right to completely ignore them.

Hope to pick this up over a beer soon.

My Highlander 'thermarest' is fine after six years, but they all break in the end and my £11.99 mat has seen more use than many a thermarest owned by many here who buy but don't actually use because they don't actually go anywhere to use it.. The £1.99 dealextreme headlight I got for the 2006 moot is fine, so are my expensive stoves and things like Hex3 or £275 Berghuass jacket I treated myself to in January this year. or Vango Juno which was only £80. Its all a matter of picking the right kit for the job in hand to suit your requirements.

You have missed my views by a wide mile Dougster, I don't pick cheap because its as good as the pricey kit, I pick kit regardless of price because its 'fit for purpose', i.e. my purpose.

Some here regard me as a tight bottom when in fact nothing is further from the truth, I am generous to family and friends and I will buy what I want but won't spend on something that gets used once a year, that would be a true waste.

Financially I got a nice lump sum pension pay out and pension, inherited a house a few years ago which now after extended litigation gives me a nice monthly income and the wife is now a top band 8 nurse (google that range) and we are mortgage free. Tight I'm not nor am I wasteful. In the last nine months or so I've been away to Europe on R&R six time in total after being ill and will be off again shortly with the wife where we will spend more on two weeks away than you do on kit in a decade. I did not bat an eyelid paying €50 for lunch for me on several occasions and will do the same again I'm sure; I enjoy good food.

I still think 'bushcraft' attracts what some would call the middle class, certainly many of the ones I've met or certainly those with pretensions to be at that strata in society.

Makes no difference to me, I will just plod on and enjoy life without worrying about the label I wear.

 

[Scottishwanderer]

Agree with some of what he said but not the way he went saying it.

Personally i prefer doing my thing with very minimalist stuff. Personally i don't like carrying anything on my back at all so end up with only 5 or 6 items.

I feel closer to nature this way and i've done it so many times now that i have learned and managed to get pretty comfy with what i have or maybe got used to it.

Though if i was on an overnight with my stuff and bumped into somoene with a bergen full of stuff i wouldn't mind, thats his thing and mines mine.

 

[Lumber Jack]

To be fair the guy was an a*se. It made for enjoyable if not somewhat hilarious reading though.

I think he did have a point with regards to some things. For instance. Bushcraft is realistically speaking just camping. I know plenty of folk who go out "camping" and do most if not all of the things us bushcrafters do. They make things from natural sources when needed. They gather wild food when needed. They respect the countryside and woodlands.. So what's the difference? It's pretty strange to think that the only difference is a pair of olive trousers, an iconic bushcrafting jacket, like the ones HRH Ray Mears wears, a £200 knife and we sleep predominantly on hammocks or in lavvu's. None of the above are necessary and if you look at it objectively, it's been a waste of hard earned cash. We've bought into a market that is quite false. Take the swanndri range for instance. It's expensive and materialistic nonsense. And that's coming from a guy who has three of the things! (they saw me coming)

It's human nature to want the best. I usually only wear a jacket that has "The North Face" splashed all over it and comes with a £300 tag dangling from it. I've gotten used to their products and I trust them. Is it needed though? Definitely not. I'm sure a £30 job from flebay would hold up just as well. We have to sometimes take a step back and look at how insane the world is.

Personally I think people should do what they want. If they want to carry enough kit for an Everest summit attempt, why say anything to them? They are comfortable and enjoying their selves. Personally I carry very minimal kit, I'm happy to do that. I always laugh at people who carry their homes on their back in the wild and I often have to remind myself that the world would be a very boring place if everybody liked the same as I did.

My personal opinion on Kit and expense - You buy cheap, you buy twice. I can't help that.

LJ

 

[Lumber Jack]

My Highlander 'thermarest' is fine after six years, but they all break in the end and my £11.99 mat has seen more use than many a thermarest owned by many here who buy but don't actually use because they don't actually go anywhere to use it.. The £1.99 dealextreme headlight I got for the 2006 moot is fine, so are my expensive stoves and things like Hex3 or £275 Berghuass jacket I treated myself to in January this year. or Vango Juno which was only £80. Its all a matter of picking the right kit for the job in hand to suit your requirements.

You have missed my views by a wide mile Dougster, I don't pick cheap because its as good as the pricey kit, I pick kit regardless of price because its 'fit for purpose', i.e. my purpose.

Some here regard me as a tight bottom when in fact nothing is further from the truth, I am generous to family and friends and I will buy what I want but won't spend on something that gets used once a year, that would be a true waste.

Financially I got a nice lump sum pension pay out and pension, inherited a house a few years ago which now after extended litigation gives me a nice monthly income and the wife is now a top band 8 nurse (google that range) and we are mortgage free. Tight I'm not nor am I wasteful. In the last nine months or so I've been away to Europe on R&R six time in total after being ill and will be off again shortly with the wife where we will spend more on two weeks away than you do on kit in a decade. I did not bat an eyelid paying €50 for lunch for me on several occasions and will do the same again I'm sure; I enjoy good food.

I still think 'bushcraft' attracts what some would call the middle class, certainly many of the ones I've met or certainly those with pretensions to be at that strata in society.

Makes no difference to me, I will just plod on and enjoy life without worrying about the label I wear.

What do you want? A medal? Jesus Christ. Take a modesty pill immediately.

LJ

 

[Bushwhacker]

I prefer to measure folk by character rather than class. Everyone's allowed to have an outburst without prejudice in my eyes.

 

[Paul_B]

Having worn £30 cheapo cags and now got a £260 decent gore tex pro cag I can quite honestly say there is a very obvious difference other than price and that is one works well the other doesn't. However it's all down to what you want and how you intend to use it. If all you need is a cag to get your from the car to the tent or tent to the loos in a campsite then you can probably use the £30 cag. I have to use my cag for walking, running, biking and pottering around a campsite. That means low activity in the campsite and around a town but high activity walking, running an cycling. Which means sweat and loads of it. That means I need a highly breathable cag which does cost money. I have been cold as a result of wearing a cheap cag whish held the sweat in. I now have an excellent cag but it cost me what it was worth and still performed better than cags over £100 more expensive too. I chose very well when I got my cag. It's perfect for me.

As far as class goes I think you need to know what middle class is defined as. IIRC social studies and other similar soft Uni subjects teach a letter graded class level. Class A were upper, B or C middle and so on. That has changed over the years. Years ago a teacher was a middle class occupation. Now it is not considered middle class occupation, believe it or not. However some trades have been classed as B/C class grades, i.e. middle class. It is similar with some professions. Once if you were in a professiom you were middle class. Now plumbers, electricians and other similar occupations are middle class. It changes over the years.

 

[billybob0987]

having or carrying to much kit isn't a problem as long as your not dependant on it, i like the quote they keep saying on dual survivor, the more you know the less you need, with emphisase on the need, just because you dont need something doesnt mean you dont want it, i like a healthy amount of redundancy in my kit, to further quote dave cantebury (or who ever he was quoting) 2 is 1 and 1 is none, if you lose or break something its good to have a spare, the only issue is that nothing is a renewable resource, a million pound of kit in your pack is only good while you have your pack, at the end of the day you only have whats attached to you, everything else is temporary

 

[johnboy]

No, it was exactly the same in 2004 as it is now. Everyone talked about kit to the same degree back then too.

Thats correct. The only real difference was back in 2003 2004 it was all new. Every thread on the merits of ventile or the waiting list for a micarta WS Woodlore knife was shiny and new and full of mystery..

8 years later we're still fundamentally discussing the same stuff We have the occasional dust up and we move on...

I 'love' this forum for a lot of reasons and this type of thread makes me laugh TBH.

By definition 'Bushcraft' is a broard church of activities. Is it any real wonder therefore that it's going to attract an equally broard range of people of a wide Socio economic backgrounds different experience levels, Differing interests, Different genders etc yep even different 'classes' (class being a particularly British preoccupation) .

Yes there are going to be some folk that want and can afford the best of everything kit wise. Some that can afford it but make do with a Tesco bag and an SAK. Some that cannot afford it and so on ad infinitum... We're diverse is that so surprising when you think about it?

If we're 100% honest with ourselves stepping outside our online mantles for a second there is no one true 'bushcraft' path.. To some it's one thing, say primative living skills, to others survival style experience to others a bergen the size of a caravan and an easy weekend in the woods. All methods are valid and Ultimately in the grand scheme of things none of it really matters.

Ray does this, Mors does that, Bear eats this John writes that. All are valid and at the same time none are valid.

While I do 'love' this place I occasionally look around me at the ones I love or the wider things I enjoy and realise it's just a internet forum an interesting one but fundamentally just a forum...

Cheers

John

 

[Tony]

Firstly some of the personal comments in this thread aren't needed so pack it in, people can explain things all they want, it's not for us to judge them.

Going back to the OP
I can take quite a bit of kit with me, often too much, although often I'm making sure that a few of us are comfortable. I have no problem with kit at all. I think the issue here is not so much how much kit, but how reliant you are on that kit? I can get by ok out and about with little kit, no where near as well as many people but ok, If my rucksack breaks, I can make a temporary one, I can make fish hooks,cordage, shelters, find water, friction firelight etc etc I'm not hot on food though and I'm sure I'd get sick of just eating the same few things

I'm reliant on the kit for the added comfort, time saving and convenience based on what I want to be doing, but if most of it isn't available I'm still fine going out, if none of it is available then I'm fine depending on what time of year I am, where I am etc.

So for me personally, I have no problem with people taking kit, I'd like to think that everyone that takes kit is working towards less dependence on that kit, especially in preparation for when a time calls for it but who really cares what people take out with them? People have quoted Mors, he would take with him the best materials he can get his hands on, the most heat reflective material he can find for his shelter etc, he's one of the most capable men outdoors but he's not puffed up with pride at his minimalism, he's just confident that he'll be ok if he does have a minimalist experience.

Kit definitely does not define the class of a person, all it defines is their preference for how they as an individual want to interact with nature and I can't say that someone with some nice binoculars has less of an experience than someone with just a £5 pair of surplus DPM trousers on. Too many people only accept their perspective on the correct way to conduct themselves, that's much more of a snobbery than any class system. We should be happy for people that are enjoying themselves be it a new coat or mastering friction firelighting, we should share our views with open mindedness recognising that we're expressing our opinion and we should not look down our noses because someone else has a different opinion, or they dress differently or they were daft paying £300 for a knife when we can make do with a £4.50 knife.

Those of you that enjoy kit good for you, those of you that don't...good for you and those of you right in the middle, what a comfortable place to be