a point to be made

[Paul_B]

Class only a British thing? I remember seeing this thing on class structures in USA. The only difference is Americans can be more upwardly mobile however its more based on money and influence than occupation and where you live / was brought up. I think anywhere you go you'll have class structures although it might be called something else or even not recognised but it will be there. It is most likely based on haves and have-nots or money as much as who your parents were. One thing for sure the UK has one of the least upwardly mobile populations in the developed world. It is harder for someone from the bottom to reach the top or even middle than many other countries around the developed world. Off topic.

Realistically in this country you are not going to have to survive on knowledge and a bushcraft knife for long. Even in Scotland you can walk out in a day to somewhere. If you are injured there are people to recover you. The only thing you need to do is ensure you can get yourself out or to survive until someone does that for you. Either way that can come down to basic clothing and kit. Easier with better kit but still possible to survive in cheaper and even less kit with knowledge. I used to take enough kit to survive a night out when I walked in the Lakes in winter. Now I take less and rely on moving fast. If I can't move I know I have enough to survive both knowledge and basic kit. It would be an absolutely uncomfortable night though without sleep. Now I would actually go out deliberately for a night in winter with the kit I used to carry for emergency only. Things change with experience and knowledge but you don't.

 

[johnboy]

Class only a British thing? I remember seeing this thing on class structures in USA. The only difference is Americans can be more upwardly mobile however its more based on money and influence than occupation and where you live / was brought up. I think anywhere you go you'll have class structures although it might be called something else or even not recognised but it will be there. It is most likely based on haves and have-nots or money as much as who your parents were. One thing for sure the UK has one of the least upwardly mobile populations in the developed world. It is harder for someone from the bottom to reach the top or even middle than many other countries around the developed world. Off topic.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at my post? Anyhow at the risk of perpetuating a what is a pointless discussion..

I don't think I said 'class' was only a British thing what I did say was... Class was a Particularly British Preoccupation ie 'you' poms seem generally more bothered by concepts of class or class structures etc than other nationalities. This thread and the original one sort of bear that out. Bringing 'class' into what is essentially a benign pursuit from a class point of view.

Class structures of course exist in other countries and cultures based on all sort of wierd and wonderful criteria.

Any how I need to cut my toe nails and some other important stuff. Have a good weekend...

Cheers

John

 

[Toddy]

You too John


Hear ? would it be taken wrongly if I said I was classless ?

M

 

[santaman2000]

Class only a British thing? I remember seeing this thing on class structures in USA. The only difference is Americans can be more upwardly mobile however its more based on money and influence than occupation and where you live / was brought up. I think anywhere you go you'll have class structures...

You're closer than you probably realize here. At least regarding the US. That's why I was confused when I first read some of the comments on "middle class." Here "class" has two basic (and separate) meanings. The first (when making references such as middle class, upper middle class, etc.) is entirely income level (notice I said income level rather than "money") It begins at the lower end with those in the poverty level, moves to the working poor, on to the middle class, the upper middle class and finally to the wealthy.

In earlier societies where class was something you were born into the lower classes might have been though as inferior but you mentioned that you believe there are more chances here for upward mobility. That's actually where the value judgements begin here; with a person's ambition (or lack of it) to improve their economic position and responsibilties. An example would be a person with a trade (say plumbing which BTW is a high paying trade here) might begin as an employee with a plumbing company but his/her ambition would be to one day own than company and expand it. This meaning for "class" (earnings) is open to anyone with the ambition.

The second meaning of class is more of a personal nature, not directly related to birth (but very related to how one is reared) It refers to an intangible such as Toddy said earlier when we were discussing "manners." It is the quality (or lack of it) of having morals, manners, a sense of fairness, good taste (obviously subjective), loyalty, etc. and the courage to stand up for those ideals. Under this meaning of "class" anyone of any economic level may be said to "have class" or to "have no class."

 

[Wayland]

First time I've looked at either of these threads. What a lot of fuss over nothing.

I have some expensive kit and some dirt cheap stuff. I've made lots myself and adapted even more. What on Earth has any of that got to do with class?

I can go out with a small pack sometimes or a van full of comforts on others, so what?

It's a hobby for goodness sake and if you're not enjoying what you do, try something else.

If you're not enjoying what someone else does, butt out unless it's doing some harm.

What a shame someone has felt the need to leave on bad terms over such a thing...

 

[Lumber Jack]

First time I've looked at either of these threads. What a lot of fuss over nothing.

I have some expensive kit and some dirt cheap stuff. I've made lots myself and adapted even more. What on Earth has any of that got to do with class?

I can go out with a small pack sometimes or a van full of comforts on others, so what?

It's a hobby for goodness sake and if you're not enjoying what you do, try something else.

If you're not enjoying what someone else does, butt out unless it's doing some harm.

What a shame someone has felt the need to leave on bad terms over such a thing...

Why couldn't I have said something like that!

Wayland, I've came to the conclusion that it's a very high possibility that you are God .

Well said, mate.

 

[Doc]

From my experience of meets, I would say that people are respected for their skills and willingness to share them, and not for possessing nice kit.

However, there is a tendency for folks to bring new, unusual or high quality kit in order to let other folks handle it and try it out. I think this is unquestionably a very good thing - if you are thinking of buying a particular canoe, bow, stove or a knife, then the chance of a test drive in an outdoors environment is very helpful. Often I have bought (or not bought) something because I have had a chance to try someone elses. My view on folks who bring nice kit to a meet is that they are doing it to help others, rather than to big themselves up. Maybe I am assuming people are naturally altruistic, but I think life is much better when you see others that way.

 

[Shewie]

What a shame someone has felt the need to leave on bad terms over such a thing...

Don't forget it was actually ex-member who brought up the class thing in the first place, I think everybody else has jumped on the back of that.

I'm still not sure what the argument was about, one minute they were sick of folk with too much gear, then it was cheap gear videos and then next they're having a dig a middle class folk who think they're better than others. Personally I think it was a drunken rant over nothing, why not start a civilised thread about the issue rather than just spouting off like that?

And I'd love to know what that last sentence was going to be

We a ...?

 

[Elines]

Am I the only one who has got lost on this thread?

Has someone left the forum over something that has been said? (can't find any reference to that )

 

[ged]

Am I the only one who has got lost on this thread?

Has someone left the forum over something that has been said? (can't find any reference to that )

EagleOwl, in a thread about kit, which I can't seem to find at the moment as he's now an 'Ex-member'.

 

[Elines]

Ahh - ok thanks Ged

 

[forestwalker]

I like to take the minimum, purely because I don't like carrying stuff. But if you like lots of kit, get all the pleasure you can out of it, just don't ask me to carry any.

I agree. There are no porpoises in carrying stuff back and forth in the bush. The trick is knowing which bits one needs and which bits is unnessesary. And there is no anwer that is right for everyone. Myself I am striving towards having (and using at least occationally) a fully paleolithical kit. Not because I want to be better than thou, but because if I can do that, then I will know that whatever happens I could replace/rebuild every item in my kit should I loose it. I am decent on the primitive tech stuff, but by no means a master (more an ok jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none). Eventually I'll either reach my goal or get tyo old and decrepit to continue.

As to our paleolithical forfathers, I bet that there were kit&shiny junkies then too, the difference was that then it was a better built burden basket, a pair of neat woven inner shoes to keep the grass in place around your feet, a *copper* axe or a bannerstone that presumably made your atlatl throws ever soo much smoother and faster.

 

[Tony]

EagleOwl, in a thread about kit, which I can't seem to find at the moment as he's now an 'Ex-member'.

Worth pointing out it was at his request

 

[darrenleroy]

I agree. There are no porpoises in carrying stuff back and forth in the bush. The trick is knowing which bits one needs and which bits is unnessesary. And there is no anwer that is right for everyone. Myself I am striving towards having (and using at least occationally) a fully paleolithical kit. Not because I want to be better than thou, but because if I can do that, then I will know that whatever happens I could replace/rebuild every item in my kit should I loose it. I am decent on the primitive tech stuff, but by no means a master (more an ok jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none). Eventually I'll either reach my goal or get tyo old and decrepit to continue.

As to our paleolithical forfathers, I bet that there were kit&shiny junkies then too, the difference was that then it was a better built burden basket, a pair of neat woven inner shoes to keep the grass in place around your feet, a *copper* axe or a bannerstone that presumably made your atlatl throws ever soo much smoother and faster.

Spot on! It's within our DNA to seeker easier lives, to improve what we have and to be inquisitive about life. This is how advances in technology take place. Forestwalker. I would LOVE to see your kit one day. Could you do a You Tube video of it all? Total respect for getting paleolithic.

 

[Maggot]

Financially I got a nice lump sum pension pay out and pension, inherited a house a few years ago which now after extended litigation gives me a nice monthly income and the wife is now a top band 8 nurse (google that range) and we are mortgage free. Tight I'm not nor am I wasteful. In the last nine months or so I've been away to Europe on R&R six time in total after being ill and will be off again shortly with the wife where we will spend more on two weeks away than you do on kit in a decade. I did not bat an eyelid paying €50 for lunch for me on several occasions and will do the same again I'm sure; I enjoy good food.

Which band 8? There is 3.

He's right though, I'm in the same pay scale, and the pay is alright.

 

[Maggot]

When it comes to kit, a chap called Sheldon Brown, who was a bit of a cycling guru said of kit "Light, Cheap, Strong....choose any two" That pretty much goes for outdoors gear as well in my experience.

 

[Minotaur]

Just finished reading Ultralight Backpaking tips by Mike Clelland
Scary Stuff & not for me.
I carry too much even if Im just walking the dog.

LOL Not read this one, but really like the idea, it is the excuection that I have trouble with. The Ray Jardine are surposed to be worse, or better. Depending on your opinion. I am pro the forums chats blogs etc because it is a big camp fire chat. Lots of clever ideas, not so sure for me, but the thinking, ideas, and planning always worth reading. My plutypus filter arrives sometime soon, really liked that idea.

When it comes to kit, a chap called Sheldon Brown, who was a bit of a cycling guru said of kit "Light, Cheap, Strong....choose any two" That pretty much goes for outdoors gear as well in my experience.

My personal opinion on Kit and expense - You buy cheap, you buy twice. I can't help that.

Is that not the point of the step between light and ultra-light weight. You must come to a point where the only way to get lighter is to buy the best. I must admit reverse that order and it is how I buy kit.

I would consider my Trangia, and Mora to fit all three, and as far as the Mora goes I think I have brought over ten.

I must point out I brought them on offer but just brought two Karrimor daysacks, and if I had paid full price, would have turned up at head office. The Gelert daysac they were to replace is still going strong as a work bag, and never showed these build quility issues. I still have a Karrimor fleece that is almost perfect, and over twenty years old. This was brought to hike in, but become a daily use item.

Thats correct. The only real difference was back in 2003 2004 it was all new. Every thread on the merits of ventile or the waiting list for a micarta WS Woodlore knife was shiny and new and full of mystery..

Kit chat goes back as long as I have camped, which is thirty years this year. It always will go on. The true trick is to pick the good items. I remember reading John Fenna articles in Survival weaponary and techniques, and drueling over things I still could not justify buying now, or afford then.

You have missed my views by a wide mile Dougster, I don't pick cheap because its as good as the pricey kit, I pick kit regardless of price because its 'fit for purpose', i.e. my purpose.

Yep, completly agree. Money is a big issue for me, which is why forums etc are such a big help. I tend to find my voice here as the one going why would you pay that? There are people here who pay more for a single item than my whole kit costs.

Not at all darren cos I take a whole bottle of whiskey

Lets not get crazy! There are some items that come along regardless of weight.

 

[forestwalker]

Forestwalker. I would LOVE to see your kit one day. Could you do a You Tube video of it all? Total respect for getting paleolithic.

I'm not there yet. I'm planning to make a determined push during the comming year, time will tell how far I get. I'll take som pictures when there is much to show.

Also, the goal is to expand my own "skill horizon", that is ensure that I have the skills to not only make but also use such a kit.

 

[Neumo]

Oh I LOVE Threads like this.... 'What is the true nature Bushcraft..', 'I use less/cheaper kit than you..' & a bit of good old Class Prejudice all in 1 thread...

My 2 cents:
- It is really a hobby for most of us... but one that changes our perspective on life, the rat race, our relationship with the nature & land etc.. not to be underestimated
- When it comes to kit, I have come to believe that there are 2 types of bushcrafters for me. Those that walk in more than than 10 miles & those that dont. For those that dont most of the time then kit & it's weight is more of an aspiration than a necessity.
- Cheap kit will do 2/3rds of the time; boots, jackets & sleep systems excluded. A £8 Mora will do 99% of what my £*** Deval Bushcrafter knife will do, but it does not make me smile every time I use it. Toys make us happy. Accept it. It is the low income guys that buy a Mora, an ex-Armay Bergen & a Builders tarp then head out into the woods for many days that impress me. For the rest of us it is more fun to buy & recieve a Titanium cooking pot than a £3 stainless dog bowl; both will cook your dinner exactly the same. Ti makes you smile though...
- Going out into the woods with nothing but a knife to survive with is an ideal, so accept it as such. It is the definition of the goal that many of us want to one day to achieve, of attaining that high level of self sufficientcy with the minimum of kit. Every time we go out to the woods or go to a meet we learn some more that helps us get closer to that goal. Does not mean I want to be out in the canadian forest with just a mora though. I like to read about people that do it, want to do it myself some more but in reality most of us probably dont want to rough it to the extreme too often or to that degree. For me I love being out in the woods for a few days but I have found that I have a much better time in a fancy hammock, under a tarp with lots of beer & malts of distinction.
- As for the class thing; get over it... you are what class you feel comfiest with or what class you have been programmed to be. It is that simple. It is always one of the two in my experience. Class is by far the biggest prejudice we have in the UK, but is very rarely discussed with an open mind. Rich people drive Audis; poor people drive Audis. The latter may not have the latest ones, but you might be surprised how many 'working class' folk have nice houses, cars etc.. That is another whole can of worms though...

 

[Bushwhacker]

It shouldn't be encouraged, I know, but an online meltdown and the subsequent fall out is pretty damned entertaining. It's the internet for Christ's sake!