Body of young man found on Ben Nevis
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Are we actually condemning this guy for not knowing enough to avoid such a tragedy? What a completely heartless, sad, narrow-minded thread.
Exactly what I am trying to get at. Yes if you are ill equipped and inexperienced you can put the rescue services at risk, but then if you are well equipped and get into trouble do you put them into any less risk? Ok I don't live anywhere near the mountains so I cannot speak as a volunteer but I do believe that the essence of volunteering is that you are doing it for the sake of those who don't have the knowledge and the experience that you do. It's all very well to come on high an mighty that you would not have done this and that but that is not how it happens is it.
It's Scotland, it's the middle of Winter, there are signs everywhere about being aware of the weather.
I am neither heartless nor narrow minded, but I am incredibly practical.
Every single year this happens. Ill dressed, ill prepared and ill equiped folks die on our hills.
I am incredibly grateful that the Mountain Rescue teams are prepared to go out and search and rescue. My husband and sons and my friends climb those hills, and though they do go properly dressed and equiped, accidents do happen.
As I said when I started this thread, we have a custom of not speaking ill of the dead, but this man, and others like him, risk the lives of many others because they can't be bothered to listen, to pay heed, and actually prepare properly.
Toddy
All I can say is did the good Samaritan ask if the wounded guy had insurance? No way! If you understand that story aright you realise that the Samaritan was not only putting himself at financial risk in paying for the Inkeepers bills he was putting himself in danger for the crime of being a Samaritan and being suspected of the felony himself.
Yes it is sensible to prepare and make provision for your rescue outside of the UK, but Ben Nevis, or Snowdon, or whatever, are we not free in our own land?
If I save anyone's life for any reason is it right that I demand payment off them for it, No, no no, that is not my way, my belief at all, should I say no pay, you die?
Even if its sea, mountain, road accident, fire or flooding, all rescue services require equipment, communications and logistics both professional and volunteer.
There will soon be even more pressure shortly on the MRT,S and lifeboats in Scotland. HMS Gannet will close shortly and the 24hr control rooms for sea rescue are also closing due to money, nothing works without it.
Emergency services are now looking at charging and claiming insurance for rescues.
As for the good samaritan, some people have starred in that video and people will sue the 4r53 off you given the chance. The men in wigs don,t daydream.
At the end of the day you are accountable for your actions and that of others and should take all reasonable steps to ensure their safety.The minute you do any work whether its volunteer or not, corporate law comes into play.
There will soon be even more pressure shortly on the MRT,S and lifeboats in Scotland. HMS Gannet will close shortly and the 24hr control rooms for sea rescue are also closing due to money, nothing works without it.
Emergency services are now looking at charging and claiming insurance for rescues.
As for the good samaritan, some people have starred in that video and people will sue the 4r53 off you given the chance. The men in wigs don,t daydream.
At the end of the day you are accountable for your actions and that of others and should take all reasonable steps to ensure their safety.The minute you do any work whether its volunteer or not, corporate law comes into play.
Hi,
The following article should be compulsary reading for anyone who goes onto the hills IMHO
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1432
Stu
The following article should be compulsary reading for anyone who goes onto the hills IMHO
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1432
Stu
The guy made a very costly mistake. I don't condone it. I wish he'd assimilated the risks properly and acted accordingly. And yes the mountain rescue are brave men and women who assume an inordinate amount of risk saving lives. But the two are not mutually exclusive; and the slightly sinister element in both your messages is that you seem to be implying that such a mistake is an act of unwanted aggression towards more "practical types" like yourself and and the emergency services. "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee". Chris
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Oh for goodness sake - the forum rules request we do not discuss religion - can we avoid dragging the discussion down into silly mysticism please?
A 20 year old person lost his life, and most (or some) of you mock him and are angry at him for being ill prepared. We make mistakes when we are young, no matter what your mistake is you should NEVER mock the dead. Think what his mother would feel if she read this thread!
What I find amazing about this tragedy is that very few people will actually learn from it. Seems even more senseless somehow...
I have seen no mockery, but I have seen criticism of poor judgement.
I think, whilst we are all saddened at a life cut short, criticism is necessary to prevent repetition of foolhardy behaviour.
Recently, treelore criticised some of my safety equipment. He is far more knowledgeable than me in the area concerned, and I sought his advice following his criticisim, and acted upon it. HIs criticism was intended to highlight a safety gap in my equipment, and, as the person criticised, I am grateful for it (constructive as it was) and hope others have learned as much as I have.
Failing to improve equipment, technique, skill or procedure, following a tragedy, is foolish and allows the tragedy to repeat.
I was lucky in that a wiser person helped me by criticising me - before a tragedy happened. But had I died, I hope that, since I could not provide an example, that I would serve as a lesson!
Toddy's post was tasteful, restrained and appropriate in my view
Red
I think, whilst we are all saddened at a life cut short, criticism is necessary to prevent repetition of foolhardy behaviour.
Recently, treelore criticised some of my safety equipment. He is far more knowledgeable than me in the area concerned, and I sought his advice following his criticisim, and acted upon it. HIs criticism was intended to highlight a safety gap in my equipment, and, as the person criticised, I am grateful for it (constructive as it was) and hope others have learned as much as I have.
Failing to improve equipment, technique, skill or procedure, following a tragedy, is foolish and allows the tragedy to repeat.
I was lucky in that a wiser person helped me by criticising me - before a tragedy happened. But had I died, I hope that, since I could not provide an example, that I would serve as a lesson!
Toddy's post was tasteful, restrained and appropriate in my view
Red
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I neither mocked nor insulted his mother.
Scotland has a law of responsible right of access. This young man was irresponsible.
He is not alone in his irresponsibility.
That's the issue that the thread was intended to highlight, and all those who have decided to post holier than thou because they subscribe to some overweaning belief that one ought not discuss an issue that lead to a fatality, are burying their heads in their nether regions.
On open forum I clearly state; this death should not have happened.
His family and friends have my sympathy, but it is way beyond time that people learned from such tragedies.
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Mod hat on...........the forum asks quite clearly that we do not discuss religion; please bear this in mind when you post.
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cheers,
Toddy
OK I could of phrased that better.
I did not say you mocked and insulted his mother. I meant, the general mood of this thread, the general vibe that I get is that he deserved it, and how selfish of him for risking other peoples lives. That is how it reads to me, maybe Im reading it wrong or in a wrong frame of mind. not from any one comment but in summary.
I did not say you mocked and insulted his mother. I meant, the general mood of this thread, the general vibe that I get is that he deserved it, and how selfish of him for risking other peoples lives. That is how it reads to me, maybe Im reading it wrong or in a wrong frame of mind. not from any one comment but in summary.
You know what my neighbour said this morning, when the report came out that they'd found him ?
"Another one. You'd think they'd learn. It's not that they're no' told often enough."
That was it.
That's exactly how much comment it raised among folks who know the area and the history of the people who don't listen, don't prepare; and every single time the rescue folks go out and try to find them in time.
Thankfully they most often succeed, but there's not much they can do when folks don't help themselves and the weather is beyond mortal wit or skill or ability to get to them in time.
So how do we get people to listen, to actually pay heed?
The folly of youth is no excuse. Even mature folks do silly things, fortunately most of the time we survive them, but the numbers of folks getting into trouble on the hills and moors isn't getting any less.
cheers,
Toddy
"Another one. You'd think they'd learn. It's not that they're no' told often enough."
That was it.
That's exactly how much comment it raised among folks who know the area and the history of the people who don't listen, don't prepare; and every single time the rescue folks go out and try to find them in time.
Thankfully they most often succeed, but there's not much they can do when folks don't help themselves and the weather is beyond mortal wit or skill or ability to get to them in time.
So how do we get people to listen, to actually pay heed?
The folly of youth is no excuse. Even mature folks do silly things, fortunately most of the time we survive them, but the numbers of folks getting into trouble on the hills and moors isn't getting any less.
cheers,
Toddy
Its a bit tacky to talk like this of the dead so soon after it happened, bad form really; perhaps talking in more general terms about mountain safety would be a lot more appropriate.
My thoughts are with the lads family and loved ones. R.I.P.
My thoughts are with the lads family and loved ones. R.I.P.
Hi,
My condolences to Mr Manir's family on their loss.
It's reasonable to point out that Mr Manir is one of many people who venture into the British Hills each year and have some form of incident overtake them. That a lot of these people are poorly prepared or equipped is a fact as is the fact that folk have ventured into the hills poorly prepared for a very long time prior to Mr Manir and realistically despite what we write on a forum they will venture into the hills in the future.
My experience of people involved in MRT or SAR teams is that they give the time and expertise they bring to the team freely and utilise this skill selflessly for either experienced Mountaineers in trouble or folk that are ill equipped or prepared.
It's possible to view the figures for Incidents in the English and Welsh Mountains online at the following link.
http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/media-centre/statistics
The upshot is incidents are on the rise. But so is participation in the hills.
The BMC had figures of 185,000 people participating in 1964
and an estimation of 7.06 million participating in 2001 what the figure is 10 years later I do not know.
I suppose statistically the more folk participating the greater the likely hood of incident. Which would be born out by the MR figures...
The deeper questions are how do we prevent the Statistics getting worse and is there sufficent MRT provision.
My condolences to Mr Manir's family on their loss.
It's reasonable to point out that Mr Manir is one of many people who venture into the British Hills each year and have some form of incident overtake them. That a lot of these people are poorly prepared or equipped is a fact as is the fact that folk have ventured into the hills poorly prepared for a very long time prior to Mr Manir and realistically despite what we write on a forum they will venture into the hills in the future.
My experience of people involved in MRT or SAR teams is that they give the time and expertise they bring to the team freely and utilise this skill selflessly for either experienced Mountaineers in trouble or folk that are ill equipped or prepared.
It's possible to view the figures for Incidents in the English and Welsh Mountains online at the following link.
http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/media-centre/statistics
The upshot is incidents are on the rise. But so is participation in the hills.
The BMC had figures of 185,000 people participating in 1964
and an estimation of 7.06 million participating in 2001 what the figure is 10 years later I do not know.
I suppose statistically the more folk participating the greater the likely hood of incident. Which would be born out by the MR figures...
The deeper questions are how do we prevent the Statistics getting worse and is there sufficent MRT provision.
Hi,
Some interesting statistical research and recommendations on mountain incidents in scotland
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
Regards
Stu
Some interesting statistical research and recommendations on mountain incidents in scotland
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
Regards
Stu
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