Knife Commission

[durulz]

Hello All.
OK, it's my birthday in February. And what I would REALLY like is a damascus blade knife.
Wondered if some of you clever and talented knife makers out there could give me a price on a 3 or 31/2 or 4 inch Damascus bladed full-tang knife with bone/horn scales (but probably wood as well, due to price). I'm not really a fan of the 'bushcraft' blade style - I prefer a blade with a straight top edge and an upswept edge, or even a traditional 'bowie'/hunters style blade. Does that make sense?
If the price is right then I have been told I can have one for my birthday! Just thought it would be a good idea to see how much it would be (haven't been given a price - that was the first thing I asked - just told 'if it's right') and how long it would take to do.
Just want to get some ideas, so this isn't a definite commission and I realise prices maybe approximates. If we go ahead with it then we'll sort out specifics.
Cheers All.

 

[woof]

Try Jim Adams, of black toe knives, he does a lot of work in damascus(i have 2), his prices are good, if he has something in stock that he needs to sell. I paid a £100 for the one i posted pics of.

Rob

 

[Shewie]

http://www.berax.co.uk/#/woodsman-bt/4537205267

 

[Klenchblaize]

That reminds me that I must get around to commissioning a Bernie Garland "bushcraft folder" in 2010 and to permit sale of my Lonewolf Harsey T3 plain edge.

Cheers

 

[Martyn]

Hello All.
OK, it's my birthday in February. And what I would REALLY like is a damascus blade knife.
Wondered if some of you clever and talented knife makers out there could give me a price on a 3 or 31/2 or 4 inch Damascus bladed full-tang knife with bone/horn scales (but probably wood as well, due to price). I'm not really a fan of the 'bushcraft' blade style - I prefer a blade with a straight top edge and an upswept edge, or even a traditional 'bowie'/hunters style blade. Does that make sense?
If the price is right then I have been told I can have one for my birthday! Just thought it would be a good idea to see how much it would be (haven't been given a price - that was the first thing I asked - just told 'if it's right') and how long it would take to do.
Just want to get some ideas, so this isn't a definite commission and I realise prices maybe approximates. If we go ahead with it then we'll sort out specifics.
Cheers All.

If you dont mind me saying, that seems an odd way to spend several hundred pounds. I think it's normal practice for the customer to hunt down a specific maker and contact them directly about a specific knife, rather than ask anyone to tender for the work.

Not all knives are the same and not all makers are as talented. It seems like you are asking for any old damascus knife and you're not too fussed who makes it or what it looks like because price is your main concern? Also, be aware that most makers worth spit have a waiting list of 6 months or more, so youy are prolly a little late for a February delivery.

 

[Everything Mac]

martyn is right durulz.

you would be better off trawling britishblades.com and checking out the makers websites etc.

there are some truly amaxing makers out there but as has been said the good ones will have a waiting list!

you could consider buying a damascus billet from some one then do the work yourself. - you would get much more satisfaction out of it.

andy

 

[HillBill]

there are some truly amaxing makers out there but as has been said the good ones will have a waiting list!

Get it right mate. The popular ones will have a waiting list, the ones who sell a popular design will have a waiting list. You dont need a waiting list to be good. On the contrary, a maker who keeps ahead of his work doesnt develop a waiting list as such, he will just make 5 times as many knives as those with a waiting list. A maker with a waiting list is inclined to charge more, where as a good maker without a waiting list is inclined to work more.

Waiting list does not equal good or bad just popular. No waiting list does not equal good or bad either just not as popular or a faster worker.

The quality of the knives is what makes a maker good. No amount of waiting time will change that.

Sorry for that Durulz, had to be said.

 

[sapper1]

If you dont mind me saying, that seems an odd way to spend several hundred pounds. I think it's normal practice for the customer to hunt down a specific maker and contact them directly about a specific knife, rather than ask anyone to tender for the work.

Not all knives are the same and not all makers are as talented. It seems like you are asking for any old damascus knife and you're not too fussed who makes it or what it looks like because price is your main concern? Also, be aware that most makers worth spit have a waiting list of 6 months or more, so youy are prolly a little late for a February delivery.

A sweeping and uninformed statement designed to annoy people.
Do you have facts and figures to back up this statement,or are you just trolling?

 

[Celt_Ginger]

Get it right mate. The popular ones will have a waiting list, the ones who sell a popular design will have a waiting list. You dont need a waiting list to be good. On the contrary, a maker who keeps ahead of his work doesnt develop a waiting list as such, he will just make 5 times as many knives as those with a waiting list. A maker with a waiting list is inclined to charge more, where as a good maker without a waiting list is inclined to work more.

Waiting list does not equal good or bad just popular. No waiting list does not equal good or bad either just not as popular or a faster worker.

The quality of the knives is what makes a maker good. No amount of waiting time will change that.

Sorry for that Durulz, had to be said.

Sounds about right to me. I've seen how quickly a knife can be made. Some makers like to have a waiting list as it makes them feel important, so they may possibly engineer one for just that purpose.

 

[Siberianfury]

http://www.berax.co.uk/#/woodsman-bt/4537205267

ill second that, Bernie made one for me, a reveiw of which can be seen in the youtube link on that page. Awsome knife.

 

[Everything Mac]

Get it right mate. The popular ones will have a waiting list, the ones who sell a popular design will have a waiting list. You dont need a waiting list to be good. On the contrary, a maker who keeps ahead of his work doesnt develop a waiting list as such, he will just make 5 times as many knives as those with a waiting list. A maker with a waiting list is inclined to charge more, where as a good maker without a waiting list is inclined to work more.

Waiting list does not equal good or bad just popular. No waiting list does not equal good or bad either just not as popular or a faster worker.

The quality of the knives is what makes a maker good. No amount of waiting time will change that.

Sorry for that Durulz, had to be said.

fair point - it was just a passing comment.

 

[Martyn]

A sweeping and uninformed statement designed to annoy people.
Do you have facts and figures to back up this statement,or are you just trolling?

What? Chill out mate.

The point of the comment was to illustrate that many makers have a waiting list and that asking in December for a knife in February is probably going to cause problems for many, if not most makers. Perhaps I worded it badly, obviously you dont NEED a waiting list to be a good knifemaker, but most full time professional makers I know of, have one.

Good grief.

 

[Martyn]

Sounds about right to me. I've seen how quickly a knife can be made. Some makers like to have a waiting list as it makes them feel important, so they may possibly engineer one for just that purpose.

It depends on lots of factors. The type of knife and how it's made. A silly-simple design like a woodlore is a very quick knife to make, it's just a bit of flat stock with a couple of jigged bevels ground in. But the OP was not interested in in a woodie, he wanted a small damascus bowie. How is the knife made? Is it jig-ground or hand-ground, is it stock removed or forged? He wanted damascus, that adds massively onto the wait time - unless the maker buys in commercially made flatstock damascus. How is it heat treated? Is it just dipped in oil or is it clay hardened, Japanese style? Some people are perfectionists and take a great deal of time doing everything very carefully, others are not as fussy. There are a huge number of variables. But makers of high end customs, who forge their own blades, forge their own damascus, who do complex heat treatment and take time and care over their fit and finish, will almost always have a waiting list. Just making the damascus will take many hours, many more hours if it is done without a power hammer. There is a physical limitation on how many even the fastest smith can make in a week.

 

[Martyn]

Get it right mate. The popular ones will have a waiting list, the ones who sell a popular design will have a waiting list. You dont need a waiting list to be good. On the contrary, a maker who keeps ahead of his work doesnt develop a waiting list as such, he will just make 5 times as many knives as those with a waiting list. A maker with a waiting list is inclined to charge more, where as a good maker without a waiting list is inclined to work more.

HillBill, how many hours work do you think is reasonable to go into making a knife like this...

Just curious?

If you have everything set up and all the equipment at hand, you can knock out a jig-ground, flatstock woodlore type thing in your lunchbreak, if you are not too fussy about the finish, but to suggest that all knives can or should be made to the same time frame is ridiculous.

 

[Siberianfury]

HillBill, how many hours work do you think is reasonable to go into making a knife like this...

Just curious?

depends, is that a hand patern welded blade or from a bit of sheet steel?
is the Guard cast or forged?
what tools did he have (another factor that makes work quicker and more efficiant)

ive done a bit of work in a forge with a custom swordsmith, and if things go well may be doing so full time. apart from swords, He makes very similar knives to the one in your picture, using traditional methods, no sheet steel or casts.
he can forge 8 patern welded blades similar to that in a day, if it where stock removal it would be more like 20.

id say that a pro with the correct tools could easily knock 4 of those knives up in a day (minus the etching and fileing) based on what i have learnt working with a bloke who does it for a living.

one of the tricks of the trade that knife makers do and have done throughout the ages is claiming its harder than it realy is, for example they could say "my knives are the sharpest because i use this special HT method" or have a 6 month waiting list " because they are so sought after", its all marketing gimmiks to lure customers in and make them feel as they are buying an extraordinary product when all it is a sharp tool for cutting.

its not at all hard to make a good knife once you have the hang of it and the right tools.
it doesnt make any difference if you have a 6 month waiting list or not and the ones that dont are the more honest of craftsmen IMO.

 

[Martyn]

id say that a pro with the correct tools could easily knock 4 of those knives up in a day (minus the etching and fileing) based on what i have learnt working with a bloke who does it for a living.

That's nonesense mate. Sorry.

Do you even know how that pattern is made?

Why dont you ask Jerry Fisk (ABS Mastersmith) how long it took him to make.
http://www.fisk-knives.com/fiskcutlery.htm

Perhaps you and HillBill can give him some advice on how to cut down his waiting list.

 

[durulz]

Calm down children.
It was my post about a knife I would like. Not yours. If you want to argue about it then take it somewhere else.
Cheers all for your comments- all gratefully received.
To be honest, I think some of the knives and processes that Martyn has referred to may be out of budget.
So some compromises will probably have to be made. Hand forged damascus will probably be out, it will have to be made from stock etc.
But whatever decisions are made will be between me and the person who makes the knife for me. If either of us think the comprises will, er, compromise the final quality of the knife then that is for us to discuss.
Since this is only a speculative enquiry at this stage then I am free to ask for open quotes if I like. I am not honour bound to anyone and if I don't know them and/or not happy with their work then I will make whatever decision I need to make. I am a grown adult and I can make decisions for myself about where I buy any product from.
I asked for rough extimates and quotes. I didn't ask to be patronised or for people to start bickering.
Cheers, once again.

 

[Siberianfury]

That's nonesense mate. Sorry.

Do you even know how that pattern is made?

Its not nonsence, the smith i work with is a specialist in patern welding by hand, not from using a sheet of "ready made" damascus.

he starts with a billet of carbon steel, mild steel and nickel steel welded together.
heats them up in the forge until hot enough to work with, but not to hot to burn the carbon from the steel. He then uses a powerhammer to flatten the hot billet, then cuts a notch in the center, Folds halfway and sprinkles borax (Flux) on the steel to ensure it will take the weld correctly, afterwhich the steel is folded, reheated and beaten again, the process is continued again and again until he has over 500 layers.

the folded billet is then shaped into a bar and bent to form an edge shape.

He then does a similar thing with another billet, only this time he twists it (this will be the center peice of the blade) insted of folding it. then he ties the two patern welded peices together with wire, adds flux and welds together, before forging out the blade shape.
once the blade shape is forged using the anvil and power hammer, he grinds the bevels, edges and polishes. the blade is then etched in acid to reveal a patern Far more sofisticated than the one shown in Jerry Fisk "ABS MasterSmiths Knife you have there.

this is standard work for this bloke and takes him about a day, he often does other projects along side in his spare time.

 

[Martyn]

Calm down children.
It was my post about a knife I would like. Not yours. If you want to argue about it then take it somewhere else.
Cheers all for your comments- all gratefully received.
To be honest, I think some of the knives and processes that Martyn has referred to may be out of budget.
So some compromises will probably have to be made. Hand forged damascus will probably be out, it will have to be made from stock etc.
But whatever decisions are made will be between me and the person who makes the knife for me. If either of us think the comprises will, er, compromise the final quality of the knife then that is for us to discuss.
Since this is only a speculative enquiry at this stage then I am free to ask for open quotes if I like. I am not honour bound to anyone and if I don't know them and/or not happy with their work then I will make whatever decision I need to make. I am a grown adult and I can make decisions for myself about where I buy any product from.
I asked for rough extimates and quotes. I didn't ask to be patronised or for people to start bickering.
Cheers, once again.

That's as it should be. I wasn't trying to patronise you mate, just saying that most makers probably wont respond to requests for tender and try to persuade you to buy one of their knives. There are too many variables for it to be practical for most makers to work like that. Also pricing is a very individual thing. How much a maker charges is based on a lot of factors, but there is no flat hourly rate, so again, many makers wont even attempt to compete on that basis. Of course you can go about the comissioning process however you want, but you will probably have more joy hunting down a few makers you like the look of, within your budget etc and asking them directly.

 

[Martyn]

Its not nonsence,

Yes, it's nonesense. You dont know what you're talking about. Sorry.