anyone know?
Kilt etc...?
If i was to go trekking in Scotland 1000 years ago what would i be wearing?
Thanks
Kilt etc...?
If i was to go trekking in Scotland 1000 years ago what would i be wearing?
Thanks
Traditional Scottish Clothing
- Thread starter Dunk
- Start date
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Come along to the amazing Summer Moot (21st July - 2nd August), a festival of bushcrafting and camping in a beautiful woodland PLEASE CLICK HERE for more information.
Yid be naked laddie!
But seriously, the whole 'how old is the kilt thing' is much debated on the internet and opinion seems to favor it being a relatively recent addition (1500's).
Here are some links which may answer your questions, if not hopefully Toddy will be along shortly
http://www.kiltsdirect.com/story_kilt/story,1
http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html
http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Highland_Dress/Weaponry.asp
http://medievalscotland.org/postings/periodbeltedplaid.shtml
http://www.clans.org.uk/kilts_3.html
And some (romanticized) pics...
1 2 3 4
But seriously, the whole 'how old is the kilt thing' is much debated on the internet and opinion seems to favor it being a relatively recent addition (1500's).
Here are some links which may answer your questions, if not hopefully Toddy will be along shortly
http://www.kiltsdirect.com/story_kilt/story,1
http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html
http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Highland_Dress/Weaponry.asp
http://medievalscotland.org/postings/periodbeltedplaid.shtml
http://www.clans.org.uk/kilts_3.html
And some (romanticized) pics...
1 2 3 4
I will be interested to hear what people have to say on this, but a couple of thoughts. It was much warmer in Scotland 1000 years ago, nearly all woodland and only a small number of people would be wearing kilts as they were restricted to the small population of people living in the highlands.
Indeed I'm not too sure that kilts existed 1000 years ago and I suspect it would be some sort of trousers with wool cloak looking not too disimilar to what we think of Vikings wearing.
At least for those who actually travelled anywhere taking sheep or cattle to market, which were the major Scottish exports at the time. Which I think was then all spent on importing french wine !!!
But Scottish history is gloriously confusing, and I will be very interested to hear some insights into this.
Graham
Indeed I'm not too sure that kilts existed 1000 years ago and I suspect it would be some sort of trousers with wool cloak looking not too disimilar to what we think of Vikings wearing.
At least for those who actually travelled anywhere taking sheep or cattle to market, which were the major Scottish exports at the time. Which I think was then all spent on importing french wine !!!
But Scottish history is gloriously confusing, and I will be very interested to hear some insights into this.
Graham
All the evidences we have lead us to believe that it was a tunic of at least knee length, belted at the waist and a cloak of some kind.
We know that hose and shoes existed, and were worn, but how frequently and by what proportion of the population, we don't know.
Tunics, layered are very comfortable, can be made with no waste of fabric, and from linen, nettle and wool which all well suit our climate.
If hose are cut out across the diagonal of the grain of the fabric, they pull up snuggly, fitting closely to the leg.
I can show the process that takes a square of linen cloth and turns it into a breechclout that develops into braies..........think boxers and you won't be far wrong.
We have evidences for a leather shirt from Loch Glashan crannog, again no idea how common these were though.
Looking at people all you might have seen was someone wearing trews and a tunic and cloak.
We have no evidences for the kilt until much later, and when we do it's worn on top of that same tunic and belted in place. Very practical in a wet and windy environment
cheers,
Toddy
We know that hose and shoes existed, and were worn, but how frequently and by what proportion of the population, we don't know.
Tunics, layered are very comfortable, can be made with no waste of fabric, and from linen, nettle and wool which all well suit our climate.
If hose are cut out across the diagonal of the grain of the fabric, they pull up snuggly, fitting closely to the leg.
I can show the process that takes a square of linen cloth and turns it into a breechclout that develops into braies..........think boxers and you won't be far wrong.
We have evidences for a leather shirt from Loch Glashan crannog, again no idea how common these were though.
Looking at people all you might have seen was someone wearing trews and a tunic and cloak.
We have no evidences for the kilt until much later, and when we do it's worn on top of that same tunic and belted in place. Very practical in a wet and windy environment
cheers,
Toddy
Only if you were charging into battle.
Indeed, a féileadh mor (great kilt) is very heavy and it would be best to lay it aside before charging into battle.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Indeed, a féileadh mor (great kilt) is very heavy and it would be best to lay it aside before charging into battle.
Surely it is psychologically difficult to cahrge into battle without anything on?
Might be alarming to the other side of course but frankly I'd feel nekkid and vulnerable (without my M16, that is
)
It's been going on for an awful long time. The Romans and Greeks commented on this Celtic custom.
Then there's also the woad debate
"Ancient Briton never hit on anything as good as woad to sit on......"
cheers,
Toddy
Then there's also the woad debate
"Ancient Briton never hit on anything as good as woad to sit on......"
cheers,
Toddy
We have no evidences for the kilt until much later, and when we do it's worn on top of that same tunic and belted in place. Very practical in a wet and windy environment
Toddy,
Possibly a Scottish Match Coat?
Do you have any links or references to this sort of thing, scottish clothing design, not just 1000 years ago, but dealing with the sort of the thing the Drovers might have worn or other Scottish people with life styles that would need them to wear bushcrafty clothing.
Thanks,
Graham
Well, the whole "sky-clad into battle" thing is quite a bit earlier, and based on some possibly unreliable sources... But it apparently scared the bejesus out of the Romans.
Of course, whenever wondering about "traditional" Scottish anything, the first problem is "What exactly do you mean by Scotland or Scottish?" Scotland didn't exist in any form really until the unification of Pictland and Dalriada in the 8th Century, and even then there were very extensive areas of what we now call Scotland which were separate polities until much later - Sutherland was more Viking, and the Lowlands were largely Anlgo-Saxon (at least they were after the collapse of the Goddodin and the expansion of Bernica - with the exception of Strathclyde, which was a different beast again).
As ever, the best answer is "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..."
Of course, whenever wondering about "traditional" Scottish anything, the first problem is "What exactly do you mean by Scotland or Scottish?" Scotland didn't exist in any form really until the unification of Pictland and Dalriada in the 8th Century, and even then there were very extensive areas of what we now call Scotland which were separate polities until much later - Sutherland was more Viking, and the Lowlands were largely Anlgo-Saxon (at least they were after the collapse of the Goddodin and the expansion of Bernica - with the exception of Strathclyde, which was a different beast again).
As ever, the best answer is "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..."
Surely it is psychologically difficult to cahrge into battle without anything on?
Might be alarming to the other side of course but frankly I'd feel nekkid and vulnerable (without my M16, that is
Free, unhindered movement would have been very important in the type of combat they engaged in. Deep wounds would not be contaminated with bits of clothing either.
Also, clothes were hard to come by and expensive, no point in getting them ruined.
Drovers are later on really, but those heavy coats are well known by the late 1600's.
However, this Amazon link shows the front cover adorned by our own Ian Deveney (Monarch) and Andy Birrell (drew1166)
I made the patterns for their sarks, waistcoats, jackets, bonnets, hose.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss...&field-keywords=bare+arsed+banditti&x=10&y=15
cheers,
Toddy
However, this Amazon link shows the front cover adorned by our own Ian Deveney (Monarch) and Andy Birrell (drew1166)
I made the patterns for their sarks, waistcoats, jackets, bonnets, hose.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss...&field-keywords=bare+arsed+banditti&x=10&y=15
cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
Thanks for the link, I was only mentioing the drovers as they were likely to be travelling across distances in a range of weathers, and hence might show some insights in "Scottish" outdoor clothing.
I've never really fully unerstood why we look to N America so much for traditional outdoor clothing and look so little into our own clothing history.
Having said that, you might be an exception to this.
Graham
Thanks for the link, I was only mentioing the drovers as they were likely to be travelling across distances in a range of weathers, and hence might show some insights in "Scottish" outdoor clothing.
I've never really fully unerstood why we look to N America so much for traditional outdoor clothing and look so little into our own clothing history.
Having said that, you might be an exception to this.
Graham
I do so agree Northern European clothing styles, materials and cuts are well understood, though sometimes we struggle to say exactly where and when.......like bellbottoms and tank tops are 20th century but where did the Fair Isle vest of the twenties fit in ?
Basically, at any period, there's the foundation kit that a farm labourer might wear. In better quality fabrics that's still the clothing of the better off, but they might add on fashion dictated layers, jewellery and adornments, and fancy headgear.
The only problem with the traditional clothing of Northern Europe is that it can be inclined to make us look like extras from a Robin Hood or Viking film
and we'd certainly miss the fastenings like zips and elastic and velcro
Funnily enough many bushcrafters find wearing natural fibre fabrics to be the most sensible and comfortable clothing when out and about.
The only exception is cotton, for much though I find my jeans comfortable, it's a thirsty cloth and stays wet and cold if it gets soaked
Ventile is so tightly woven that it is quiet and breathable in use and that largely overcomes these issues.
cheers,
Toddy
Northern European clothing styles, materials and cuts are well understood, though sometimes we struggle to say exactly where and when.......like bellbottoms and tank tops are 20th century but where did the Fair Isle vest of the twenties fit in ?Basically, at any period, there's the foundation kit that a farm labourer might wear. In better quality fabrics that's still the clothing of the better off, but they might add on fashion dictated layers, jewellery and adornments, and fancy headgear.
The only problem with the traditional clothing of Northern Europe is that it can be inclined to make us look like extras from a Robin Hood or Viking film
and we'd certainly miss the fastenings like zips and elastic and velcro Funnily enough many bushcrafters find wearing natural fibre fabrics to be the most sensible and comfortable clothing when out and about.
The only exception is cotton, for much though I find my jeans comfortable, it's a thirsty cloth and stays wet and cold if it gets soaked
Ventile is so tightly woven that it is quiet and breathable in use and that largely overcomes these issues.cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
Well, you could do worse than looking like an extra from Robin Hood/Viking film !!
I have gone full circle with my clothing. From natural (cos that is pretty well all there was when I was a lad) to high-tech super lightweight and back to natural materials.
I was also thinking of making some clothes but was going to investigate Scottish/N.European designs for inspiration, hence my interest in this question here, except I am interested in almost any period.
However, I'm not a purist in this so happy enough to use zips if that seems appropriate, but velcro I hate.
Graham
Well, you could do worse than looking like an extra from Robin Hood/Viking film !!
I have gone full circle with my clothing. From natural (cos that is pretty well all there was when I was a lad) to high-tech super lightweight and back to natural materials.
I was also thinking of making some clothes but was going to investigate Scottish/N.European designs for inspiration, hence my interest in this question here, except I am interested in almost any period.
However, I'm not a purist in this so happy enough to use zips if that seems appropriate, but velcro I hate.
Graham
Well, the simplest is the "Neolithic cut", and then comes the Drindle. Both of these are incredibly practical, no waste, patterns. If they are combined with a hood with a shoulder piece they'll suit anything from hills to howling gales.
I keep threatening to draw these out and load them on the forum for folks to make their own.
I'll see what I can come up with
Zips are an excellent innovation, and elastic is just so useful, but velcro ? I know it's useful but it's messy, noisy, hard stuff
cheers,
Toddy
I keep threatening to draw these out and load them on the forum for folks to make their own.
I'll see what I can come up with
Zips are an excellent innovation, and elastic is just so useful, but velcro ? I know it's useful but it's messy, noisy, hard stuff
cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
It would be good to see some patterns, the dutch army blankets are almost like felted wool they are so dense and I am constantly threatening to cut mine up and make sort of replacement for my fleece. We also have several pieces of tweed looking to be made into something. It would be nice to feel they were based on something with historical roots.
Velcro is just so horrible, it can be useful when you need something semi-permanently stuck to together, but for pockets or flaps over jacket zips I hate it.
Mmmm just been told by my wife that a drindle is a skirt, so rather less interested in a pattern for that one
Graham
It would be good to see some patterns, the dutch army blankets are almost like felted wool they are so dense and I am constantly threatening to cut mine up and make sort of replacement for my fleece. We also have several pieces of tweed looking to be made into something. It would be nice to feel they were based on something with historical roots.
Velcro is just so horrible, it can be useful when you need something semi-permanently stuck to together, but for pockets or flaps over jacket zips I hate it.
Mmmm just been told by my wife that a drindle is a skirt, so rather less interested in a pattern for that one
Graham
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