Traditional Scottish Clothing

[Sisyphus]

On of my mates at work is getting hitched in May, and I've foolishly said I'd have a go at making his sgian dubh , afraid it aint gonna be a proper one tho, damascus steel blade with water buffalo scales and sheath, held together with pewter bolsters. If it works out you may see some photos, if not, you wont .

I'm in the same boat!!! The big day isn't for another year though thankfully! Would be great to see how yours turns out. I really fancy yew scales for some reason...


Personally I rate the kilt along with the shellsuit in the top 5 uniforms of the intoxicated antisocial twit, I'm wearing a suit to the aforementioned wedding

 

[sam_acw]

I keep threatening to draw these out and load them on the forum for folks to make their own.

Please do!!
Old answers to old questions can still be good ones.

 

[myotis]

A couple of quick pictures of mine Warthog1981 handled the sgian for me and made the sheath
cheers,
Toddy

That is indeed a lovely Sgian Dubh. It has a nice functional look to it and the little bit of silver work sets it off nicely. Thanks for sharing that, its as close as to my image of what I want from a Sgian dubh as I've seen.

Graham

 

[Sisyphus]

The thing I find odd about most of these sgian dubhs is that the notches on the spine and the "baby" fuller are completely redundant and non-functional decoration, which seems to be at odds with the notion of a utility knife that most people would have carried at the time.

I'm of the mind that the "real" sgian dubh would have had much more in common with scandinavian patterns of the same era, rather than the post-17th century cliche of the pointy daggery thing with the copper lined sheath and gaudy silver and jewel pommel...

A couple of quick pictures of mine Warthog1981 handled the sgian for me and made the sheath
Sorry, I ought to have taken one showing the side profile, the handle is slim and shaped.

 

[myotis]

The thing I find odd about most of these sgian dubhs is that the notches on the spine and the "baby" fuller are completely redundant and non-functional decoration, which seems to be at odds with the notion of a utility knife that most people would have carried at the time.

I'm of the mind that the "real" sgian dubh would have had much more in common with scandinavian patterns of the same era, rather than the post-17th century cliche of the pointy daggery thing with the copper lined sheath and gaudy silver and jewel pommel...

I thought the Sgian dubh was a concealed weapon, and that while the ornate modern sgian dubh is unlikely to represent the original, the dagger shape, the spine notches meant to improve control and maybe a proper fuller may well have been part of the original sgian dubh.

I have always assumed that the utility knife that people would have openly carried evolved into a hidden dagger carried as a weapon which then gained the label of Sgian Dubh.

Graham

 

[Toddy]

Well, mine's fully functional , and those serrations are just like filework when seen from above. The pattern is pretty much that of the small eating knife of the time, remember folks cut meat but broke bread. I don't think I've ever seen a copper lined sheath, and while I am not a fan of them, those big jewelled hilts were authentic on many knives of the period.

I do think them best kept simple, with a little individuality in the decoration. Kind of like everyone who knows me and that knife, knows it's mine

Some of the modern interpretations are beautiful pieces of craftsmanship Graham_S and Warthog1981's come to mind

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Sisyphus]

I thought the Sgian dubh was a concealed weapon, and that while the ornate modern sgian dubh is unlikely to represent the original, the dagger shape, the spine notches meant to improve control and maybe a proper fuller may well have been part of the original sgian dubh.

I have always assumed that the utility knife that people would have openly carried evolved into a hidden dagger carried as a weapon which then gained the label of Sgian Dubh.

Graham

Yeah filework on the spine where the thumb would rest would obviously serve to improve grip, but, if you're talking about a dagger, it's a stabbing/piercing weapon thus the shape, so having filework to give grip when holding it as you would a typical scandi knife etc seems contrary to the purpose of the thing.

I can't imagine any logical reason for fullering the blade of such a small knife either.

 

[myotis]

Yeah filework on the spine where the thumb would rest would obviously serve to improve grip, but, if you're talking about a dagger, it's a stabbing/piercing weapon thus the shape, so having filework to give grip when holding it as you would a typical scandi knife etc seems contrary to the purpose of the thing.

I can't imagine any logical reason for fullering the blade of such a small knife either.

We could probably bounce this around for a while, maybe the filework made it that much more multi-purpose. so when you weren't killing people you could use it it cut up your dinner.

Or maybe they didn't have file work originally, but when the need to carry concealed weapons had passed, the knives were made into utility knives by adding the file work. I can't see them just being thrown away.

Could the fuller just be aimed at reducing weight, as you would want it as light as possible if hidden in clothing.

You will gather I have no idea really, and just bouncing ideas around.

Graham

Graham

 

[Toddy]

We could ask on BB .....

cheers,
Toddy

 

[myotis]

We could ask on BB .....

cheers,
Toddy

We could indeed, I'm not a member but I am probably inerested enough to sign up just to ask. Unless someone else fancies asking.

Ahhh, I see you have already asked

I have also found this link http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/dubh.html

Graham

 

[forestwalker]

What were the trousers made of?

Wool, naturally.

 

[myotis]

Wool, naturally.

Of course

Graham

 

[Graham_S]

the jimping on the spine gives grip when you're choked up on the blade.
It gives you control when doing fine work.
I don't see the 'doo as a weapon (except as one of last resort) it's too small.
It is the right size to be a utility blade for all those little household tasks that you do around camp

 

[myotis]

the jimping on the spine gives grip when you're choked up on the blade.
It gives you control when doing fine work.
I don't see the 'doo as a weapon (except as one of last resort) it's too small.
It is the right size to be a utility blade for all those little household tasks that you do around camp

"Jimping", that was the word I couldn't remember. While certainly "I" am looking at it in terms of a utility knife, I thought that the whole point of the Sgian Dubh was its ability to be a weapon hidden in clothing albeit possibly being derived from a skinning knife.

Graham

 

[gregorach]

According to The Real Sgian Dubh Company (no affiliation):

The evolution of the sgian dubh is unclear. There is a fairly convincing theory that the it evolved from an earlier and possibly slightly longer armpit dagger (the sgian achlais) which was worn next to the upper arm and hidden from view by the wearer’s clothing. There are references to the sgian achlais being used in the 17th & 18th centuries but no known example exists today.

The earliest references to sgian dubhs are comparatively recent, dating from around the start of the 19th century. This corresponds with the flourish of interest in all things Highland during the Romantic period and the re-discovery and re-design of Highland dress during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certainly, by the1850s it was very commonly worn with Highland dress.

Plus, there's a big difference between a handy throat-slitting knife and what you'd normal consider a "fighting" knife...

 

[myotis]

According to The Real Sgian Dubh Company (no affiliation):



Plus, there's a big difference between a handy throat-slitting knife and what you'd normal consider a "fighting" knife...

And from the link I gave earlier

"A second theory holds that the sgian dubh evolved from the small skinning knife that was part of the typical set of hunting or gralloch knives."

Graham

 

[gregorach]

Yeah, it's all debatable. The main point I was going for there was that the sgian dubh as we currently know it was never really a weapon, but may have evolved from a weapon.

 

[myotis]

Yeah, it's all debatable. The main point I was going for there was that the sgian dubh as we currently know it was never really a weapon, but may have evolved from a weapon.

I agree if you mean the Sgian Dubh that people wear with the kilt, but we have been discussing the origins of the Sgian Dubh design, and how accurate the modern Sgian Dubh is likely to be, as it seems to have contradictaory design features.

My guess is that any small knife that could be hidden in your clothing would warrant the name Sgian dubh and that individuals will have modified their own knife to make it more to their liking (ie making the handle thinner or regrinding the point). Or indeed made one, or had one made, that made it easier to hide.

Then again, how many knives could a person own in those times, so maybe any knife had to be multipurpose hence the jimping (a tool) and a stabbing point (a weapon).

Its all interesting stuff though.

Graham

 

[Dunk]

WOW

thanks for all the info!!!

did anyone come to a conclusion about what they would be wearing?
Viking type clothing etc maybe?

I'm finding it difficult to find any books on this kind of thing.

THANKS

Dunk

 

[gregorach]

My reading of it is that there is no "traditional" sgian dubh - it was invented in the 19th C and its origins are shrouded in mystery. The possibly-sort-of-traditional "hidden knife" is the sgian achlais, and nobody really knows what it looked like.

If you're interested in known traditional Scottish knives from the earlier historical period, you're looking at something more like a dirk or bollock dagger.