Wool/cotton long johns insulation when wet

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Nov 18, 2013
7
0
England
Hello, I searched for quite a while before posting this, but apologies if this has been asked before.

I'm hunting for some wool long johns. I've tried merino wool but these developed a hole pretty quickly, I'm assuming 100% merino wool isn't strong enough for long john usage. Failing this, I searched for 100% wool long johns, but these seem rare and I'd be concerned they'd suffer from the same durability problems (please correct me if I'm wrong). So now I'm looking at a pair of surplus wool/cotton 50/50 blend long johns and was wondering if these are still able to offer good insulation when wet, or does the blended cotton remove that ability?

Also, if anyone knows any good sources for either 100% wool or wool blend long johns, I'd be grateful.

Many thanks
 
Nov 18, 2013
7
0
England
You could try polypropylene?

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks!

And cheers for the suggestion, though I have a strong preference for natural over synthetic (should've mentioned that). I will consider compromising on that if it turns out that a pair of natural, durable long johns that insulate while wet is asking too much.
 

Macaroon

A bemused & bewildered
Jan 5, 2013
7,214
367
73
SE Wales
I can't help you with sourcing the woolen LJs, but I know that to keep the desired properties of wool in a blend you need to have at least 80% wool in the mix. Foreign (Swiss, Italian and Austrian) military surplus would be a good bet, the Alpine nations seem to have used woolen underlayers, but you'll have to hunt for them.....Endicotts is always worth a call as they'll give you advice even if they don't have stock.
 

redandshane

Native
Oct 20, 2007
1,581
0
Batheaston
Aaaaah this ones easy .Try not wetting your pants you should be fine.Welcome to the forum

On a serious note is it the Swedish ones you are looking at? I have seen those but I find the German army cold weather and current British army ones to be excellent Brit ones dry quick.If its that wet wear waterproof trousers.
 
Nov 18, 2013
7
0
England
Aaaaah this ones easy .Try not wetting your pants you should be fine.Welcome to the forum

On a serious note is it the Swedish ones you are looking at? I have seen those but I find the German army cold weather and current British army ones to be excellent Brit ones dry quick.If its that wet wear waterproof trousers.

So that's where I've been going wrong? I guess I've been watching too much Bear Grylls.

But yeah it was the Swedish ones. Do you mean like these ones: http://militarymart.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=835 and http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-G...K_Women_s_Activewear&var=&hash=item1c200ae97f ? They sound good though all the ones I can find are 100% cotton, which seems to contradict the 'quick drying' thing but I'd be glad to hear otherwise.

Cheers
 

rg598

Native
1. 100% wool does not have that ability. i.e. wool will lose significant insulation when it gets wet. The whole "keeps you warm when wet" thing only works on the internet.

2. Consequently, 50/50 wool/cotton blend will not keep you warm when wet.

3. Stay dry, and avoid gimmicks. Nothing will keep you warm when it's wet.
 

Teepee

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 15, 2010
4,115
5
Northamptonshire
For reasonably hardwearing thermals that deal with moisture well, Polypropylene is a good choice and usually quite cheap too. The fleece/pile lined thermals tend to work better than the standard wovens when damp.

Yes, it can smell after a few days but the stuff is easy washed and dried. Wool will absorb a good amount of moisture before it starts to feel particualrly cold but when its is wetted out, it takes a long time to dry compared to a good synthetic.

For real performance when it's very wet, polypropylene(PP) fleece is great. It drains very quickly and maintains a good level of insulation when quite damp. It's usually very/overly warm though.

I personally favour naturals too, but for performance in the wet-synthetic cannot be beaten IMO. Fleece will keep you warm in the wet-hence the reason that paddlers and drysuit users wear PP fleece underneath the shell.
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
1. 100% wool does not have that ability. i.e. wool will lose significant insulation when it gets wet. The whole "keeps you warm when wet" thing only works on the internet.

2. Consequently, 50/50 wool/cotton blend will not keep you warm when wet.

3. Stay dry, and avoid gimmicks. Nothing will keep you warm when it's wet.

In my (extensive) experience of cycling in cold, wet conditions, wool underlayers keep me warm and synthetics or cotton do not.

I make no pretense to understanding the mechanism, but this is my experience. I cycle year round in all weathers, mostly a journey of 25miles to work and 25miles home. When it is cold and wet I put on the thin wool gear and I stay warm. I have not compared this to a full Buffalo clothing setup. If I get soaked, I can squeeze the water out of wool, put it on, and feel warmth, immediately. The same doesn't happen with polyester, polypropylene or acrylic clothing.

So you can say it doesn't work, but I will continue to rely on wool next to my skin when there is sleet in the air and I have to slog to work.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
1. 100% wool does not have that ability. i.e. wool will lose significant insulation when it gets wet. The whole "keeps you warm when wet" thing only works on the internet.

Disagree. An example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc

And I regularly have regularly dried wet stuff - socks/fleece etc - in my Wiggys bag overnight!

I have also done the same with Buffalo/Survival Aids fibre-pile sleeping bags, with wet stuff put between the outer and inner bags.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Disagree. An example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc

And I regularly have regularly dried wet stuff - socks/fleece etc - in my Wiggys bag overnight!

I have also done the same with Buffalo/Survival Aids fibre-pile sleeping bags, with wet stuff put between the outer and inner bags.

I think that is a gimmick though. Try it at the temperatures the bag is rated too and you would have a different outcome.

I tend to agree with Ross. If any material gets soaked its gonna make you cold unless you are working hard. We all reach for a layer when we are walking then stop as the moisture draws the heat away from the core. Eventually body heat will dry the layer but we need an over layer in the mean time.

i use merino and i use synthetic base layers. (merino are devold and dhb cycling, synthetic are rab). If im static camping i prefer merino as it is warmer when not working. if im backpacking i wear synthetic as it wicks better and dries faster in my experience.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Worked at -12C in a -17C rated bag, despite me sleeping on a mesh cot (Wiggys ratings are based on an insulating ground-mat, so I'm guessing I was pushing the bag limits pretty closely!

May be a gimmick, but nice dry socks and fleece in the morning is a great gimmick:)
 

rg598

Native
Disagree. An example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc

And I regularly have regularly dried wet stuff - socks/fleece etc - in my Wiggys bag overnight!

I have also done the same with Buffalo/Survival Aids fibre-pile sleeping bags, with wet stuff put between the outer and inner bags.

Yeah, this is a common marketing gimmick from Wiggys. It is very far from true. All insulation that absorbs water will lose insulating ability when it gets wet. It is simple physics. If you have a properly rated sleeping bag (meaning it is rated to keep you thermally neutral in the given outdoor temperature) and you get it wet, you will freeze absent some other heat source. Of course, you can always gather sufficient wet insulation to keep you warm, but that is hardly the point.

Like I said, all of that stuff is gimmicks, and largely tends to work only on the internet. There are minor performance variations between different fabrics and the way they feel when wet (different from how much heat they actually retain when wet), but at the end of the day, wet is wet; and wet is cold. Staying dry and drying out quickly once wet, are the key factors in my opinion when in the woods.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Worked at -12C in a -17C rated bag, despite me sleeping on a mesh cot (Wiggys ratings are based on an insulating ground-mat, so I'm guessing I was pushing the bag limits pretty closely!

May be a gimmick, but nice dry socks and fleece in the morning is a great gimmick:)

Andy, i didnt mean you cant dry stuff inside your bag although i try not too as it just introduces moisture which at very low temps may not be pushed through to the outside, i was referring more to the video.

Bottom line for me is if you let your sleeping bag get in that state then you deserve to die. Only a muppet wouldnt protect their sleep kit if there was a real risk of a good dunking i.e river crossings or walking frozen water courses.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Andy, i didnt mean you cant dry stuff inside your bag although i try not too as it just introduces moisture which at very low temps may not be pushed through to the outside, i was referring more to the video.

Bottom line for me is if you let your sleeping bag get in that state then you deserve to die. Only a muppet wouldnt protect their sleep kit if there was a real risk of a good dunking i.e river crossings or walking frozen water courses.

I dunno about that. Accidents happen (otherwise there'd be no need for first aid kits, for example!), and I know (burst hot water bottle, as it happens!) that if a down sleeping bag gets wet, it's useless. In that situation (or a leaking tent for example), I'd want to be in a Wiggys or Buffalo bag. I've been on campsites where a sudden wind and rain has left half of the tents collapsed and contents sodden.

As to the video I posted, I don't think it was a Wiggys "plant" - check out some of the other videos the guy has put up. I say kudos to him for testing out the claims - I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to get into a sodden sleeping bag at 5C!

Maybe I'll try it out at the Super Sausage this weekend:)
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Granted accidents happen but the dwr on a wiggys would protect the inside from rain. One would hope you would be in it if the tent blew away. When mine was delivered i pooled some water on it and it stayed there beaded for over an hour. That said , if you are using a -20f bag in the right conditions the risk of water being introduced can only come through not protecting it on water crossings or falling through the ice.

Dont get me wrong, i bought a wiggys because i know it works from peer review so im a fan.
 

Uilleachan

Full Member
Aug 14, 2013
585
5
Northwest Scotland
No idea about the wiggy stuff never heard of it, but I often used my old style hollow-fill bags to dry stuff as I slept, including myself and everything I was stood in, generally the stuff/clothes would dry well. Never had a soaked bag that I HAD to sleep in whilst I too was soaked, but if there were no other option I'd have had too. I have slept in a wet bag on more than one occasion, and thats better IMO than being wet ones self and having to get into a dry bag.

Can't say the prospect of a wet self and wet bag would be that appealing but in temperatures that allow things to remain wet, rather than frozen, and provided the human heat source had enough fuel to keep generating body heat, plus enough shelter to keep off further wetness, slow further heat loss and allow things to warm, whilst a nasty prospect I'd say getting in the wet bag with wet clothes, all after a good ringing out of course, I'd have to say it's more than survivable.

The ability to self dry ones self/ones bag like this is a major consideration, in my experience, in choosing the type of bag to take on any given trip, if there's a chance of getting wet, synthetic, if it's dry (continually subzero), then grey goose down is the boy.

So, this Wiggy's claim maybe a marketing gimmick for them, but it's actually a well known property of quality synthetic bags.

Get your bag wet you deserve to die? Thats harsh Mr Thrills :p ;)

Back on topic

Other than a little cotton mixed into a synthetic material to use as trousers (or fine cotton outer layers, ventile type stuff), I'd avoid cotton for outdoor use, in any mix, like the plague, especially next to the skin.

That said it all depends what one is up to with ones clothes as to what the best clothing/materials for any given activity is.

On here we seem to have a mix of outdoors type people indulging in a wide variety of related but very different outdoor pursuits, with correspondingly different levels of anticipated risk and degrees of personal commitment.

It's not that committing to nip off to the woods for a night or two, a few miles from the car, with full reception bars on the mobile. Where as hand hauling all your kit across the greenland ice shelf unsupported, is rather more committing.

The kit for the trip to the woods doesn't need to be that specific, where as a trip to somewhere remote and cold, or hot, needs to be well thought out and tested.

The weather is only one consideration for clothing choice, other environmental factors/considerations need to be made and a balance sought.

I favour synthetic base layers, polly cotton trousers, and a 100% wool mid layer. Shell choice for me is generally gortex for mountaineering, ventile for general use and PVC oilskins for the incessant west coast deluge.

I've come full circle with clothing and now I've come to the conclusion that the 100% wool mid layer is a good compromise between insulation and additional environmental protection for the sort of stuff I do. Of course I'd choose a different mid layer for pulling a sledge across the greenland ice shelf, but I'm not planning it any time soon ;)

If one can go the wooly underpants though, then the lifa marino synthetic mix by HH would be my choice, but I can't go it myself. I'd never use a wool cotton mix next to my skin if there was a chance of getting wet with no chance of a change or reprieve. But I'm sure it would be fine for an evening or two out in the woods.

Provided your life doesn't depend on it, I say; try it out and see how you get on and adjust accordingly until you find what works for you for your given pursuit.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Get your bag wet you deserve to die? Thats harsh Mr Thrills :p ;)

Getting your bag wet on the outside is one thing but getting a flood inside it is just poor admin. I take your point though and i hope nobody dies :)

i will leave it there as i have digressed somewhat.

Andy, let me know how the test goes and give me contact details for your wife so i can paw over your kit when you are gone :D
 

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