Why is living in the midst of nature forbidden?

[Woody girl]

I can see that he is searching for answers to the horrors of the present world situation, and is a worried and scared young man. He wants out, as many of us do at times.
He has probably spent a lot of time watching films and trawling the internet for answers, and cant find them.
This is frustrating for him. And I'm sure most of us know how frustrated and worried young men act.
Not that I wish to excuse him, just trying to understand what would set this train of thought off, and his reactions.
He isn't helping himself at all. If he approached indigenous peoples with this attitude, hed get told to go away in short time.
The same applies here.
He feels trapped, scared and worried for his future. For him the answer is to run away from it all, but he doesn't know how.
On reflection, I feel sorry for this young person. I'd genuinely like to help, but I think he needs more than a bushcraft forum in his non native language can help with.
We are all, young and old, struggling with things, it's not an easy situation for anyone.
I think he needs some help to deal with life, rather than run away from it.

 

[Toddy]

In the 1930's my Father lived wild on Rannoch Moor for three years.
He had had Rheumatic Fever and in those days it took a long time to recover. No antibiotics, no National Health Service, no Unemployment or Invalidity benefits.
His parents had four other children still living at home, one had just finished his apprenticeship, and two others were still in theirs, the youngest was still in school.
So, no extra money whatsoever.

Dad took an old army pup tent, a down sleeping bag, his small toolkit, a primus stove, snares, etc.,

He was a Journeyman joiner at that point, he'd just finished his time, but was expected to spend at least two years working for his boss or other joiners at low pay as he built up experience.
So, he had a trade.
He had also wandered and foraged and hunted the woods and lochs around here and down the Clyde lochs since he was in primary school. He knew what was edible, what to do to find/hunt/prep it.

When the rheumatics floored him he slept the days away in his tent. When he was fit and able he visited the local farms and offered his services. He was happy to be paid in oatmeal, potatoes, eggs, bacon, whatever the farmer's wives had enough extra to spare.
He did hunt, guddled for fish, took rabbits and wildfowl, but he was quite blunt about it, without the good graces of the farmers wives he wouldn't have survived.
Dad was very skilled, his work was appreciated, and there was always something needing done about a farmhouse and yard buildings.

Family and friends went up to visit him fairly regularly, took him up tea, sugar, tobacco, meths, paraffin and oatmeal, etc., and fresh clothing his Mum and sisters made.
The family still have old black and white photos my Uncle took to bring home to show his parents that my Dad was okay, alive and healing.

He managed three years before he felt really well and fit again, but he only managed because of the help others gave. He was one of the most able and capable people I have ever known. I honestly don't think that someone with no knowledge, no experience of tool use, etc., would have survived.

The only place I know where one might survive, is the foreshore or marsh that is full of wildfowl.
The foreshore has the best of both. Easily gathered seafood (shell middens of the past are testament to the sheer volume that was collected and eaten, and the middens are enormous) and fat seabirds or transient wildfowl.

Other than that, well, there's a reason folks farm.

M

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks Mods for bringing my blood pressure back down again by banning him and saving me the bother of replying.
Woody Girl described him as a dreamer. I'd describe him as a nightmare!

 

[Woody girl]

Well that's a valid point Toddy.
He had been brought up in the area , he knew its ways from childhood. He had help from concerned family, and neighbours.
He didn't grow up in a time where electricity and other modern things we take for granted and deem nessasary to live comfortably.
He was probably used to living without many things, and found it much easier to adapt to that way of life, than a modern , let's face it, mollycoddled, youngster of today would

 

[Woody girl]

Thanks Mods for bringing my blood pressure back down again by banning him and saving me the bother of replying.
Woody Girl described him as a dreamer. I'd describe him as a nightmare!

I wouldn't describe him as a dreamer, in the way you think.
I think, as I have said, he is a youngster, who has the weight of the world on his shoulders, doesn't know how to cope, and feels that he needs to get out of society and try to live a more natural lifestyle, which is a great idea, until you realise the enormity of what you need to learn to be successful. That makes it frustrating for him that he cannot just go and do it.
I'm sure he knows that in truth, but the "dream" has a large pull on him, making him hit out at those who give sage advice.
Maybe he should study the stories of the many young men who went to the states to live in the wild and hunt and trap for a living and to their minds make a better life for themselves who just disappeared into the wilderness, never to be seen or heard of again.
There was a reason they were called greenhorns!

 

[Hodge]

Too often these days we are seeing examples of the Dunning Kruger effect which in short is novices having too much confidence in lack of experience.

 

[Woody girl]

Too often these days we are seeing examples of the Dunning Kruger effect which in short is novices having too much confidence in lack of experience.

I always called it,
The macho "cowpoo" effect!

 

[Wildgoose]

most of the answers to his questions could be found by searching this forum, maybe then he’d also have a grasp of what is acceptable here.

 

[Broch]

I wouldn't describe him as a dreamer, in the way you think.
I think, as I have said, he is a youngster, who has the weight of the world on his shoulders, doesn't know how to cope, and feels that he needs to get out of society and try to live a more natural lifestyle, which is a great idea, until you realise the enormity of what you need to learn to be successful. That makes it frustrating for him that he cannot just go and do it.
I'm sure he knows that in truth, but the "dream" has a large pull on him, making him hit out at those who give sage advice.
Maybe he should study the stories of the many young men who went to the states to live in the wild and hunt and trap for a living and to their minds make a better life for themselves who just disappeared into the wilderness, never to be seen or heard of again.
There was a reason they were called greenhorns!

It's interesting that our view now is that people with no experience will not learn fast enough to survive; history tells us that people did though. I have just finished reading 'The Company - The Rise and Fall of the Hudson's Bay Empire' - it has many examples of young men (Scots in particular) that went out as total 'greenhorns' and survived the vast wilderness of North America and Canada. However, I am sure, there were many time more that did not survive.

I can recommend the book BTW; quite an eye-opener (well to me anyway).

 

[Tengu]

Yesterday I read Jack Londons short story `To Build a Fire`

Anyone recall the moral?

 

[Broch]

Yesterday I read Jack Londons short story `To Build a Fire`

Anyone recall the moral?

There were many, but the one that stuck with me when I was a boy was "don't run, walk"

Actually, thinking about it, it depends on which of the very different versions you read!

 

[Woody girl]

It's interesting that our view now is that people with no experience will not learn fast enough to survive; history tells us that people did though. I have just finished reading 'The Company - The Rise and Fall of the Hudson's Bay Empire' - it has many examples of young men (Scots in particular) that went out as total 'greenhorns' and survived the vast wilderness of North America and Canada. However, I am sure, there were many time more that did not survive.

I can recommend the book BTW; quite an eye-opener (well to me anyway).

I'm sure that for every story you hear there are many you dont, simply because they didn't survive to tell their tale. So we tend to have a skewed view.
Some were helped, some had skills, some were just plain lucky.
They could tell of their experiences. The others cannot.

 

[Broch]

I'm sure that for every story you hear there are many you dont, simply because they didn't survive to tell their tale. So we tend to have a skewed view.
Some were helped, some had skills, some were just plain lucky.
They could tell of their experiences. The others cannot.

It's also true that very few Scots lads had no experience at all. They were recruited by the companies specifically because of where they came from.

 

[C_Claycomb]

It's interesting that our view now is that people with no experience will not learn fast enough to survive; history tells us that people did though. I have just finished reading 'The Company - The Rise and Fall of the Hudson's Bay Empire' - it has many examples of young men (Scots in particular) that went out as total 'greenhorns' and survived the vast wilderness of North America and Canada. However, I am sure, there were many time more that did not survive.

I can recommend the book BTW; quite an eye-opener (well to me anyway).

I have been watching a number of talks and interviews lately, some interesting ones on leadership in the business world lead me to Simon Sinek. He gives one interesting interview talking about "millennials", of which OOFCP would be at the tail end of, and the challenges they face in the world. Sinek is not one of the people who are contemptuous of this group, but he describes meeting many who have a vision of the top of the mountain, but don't see the mountain itself and have an impatience to reach the summit. Its an easy video to find and recommended for anyone who has a negative view of the younger generation. It gives a good perspective.

My own exposure to post millennial students has suggested that they are much less able to research subjects and piece many sources together to get an answer. With a team of six, who had volunteered for the program I mentored, I could find in 10 minutes on Google what they failed to find between them in a week. They were awesome at their smart phones and using social media communications and could run rings around me at maths, but they didn't know how to find info on the internet when it wasn't all collated just so. They didn't use books.

I discussed this with graduates in their 20s and they told me it wasn't my imagination, that their idea of what the internet was, was very different from mine, which was largely formed between age 18 and 23 when the internet was just a toddler. It was hard to advise on how to find information when the fundamental view of the resource was different. For someone to have lived nearly their whole life since the time I first found information on forums, without ever having posted to one blows my mind.

I think that the greenhorns that went to Canada 1670-1870 were a whole other creature. They would have had more skills as a product of their time that were applicable than we do now. They would have grown up with greater mental toughness. Things that would cause modern people (I include myself here!) stress I think they would have taken in stride much better. Stress really messes with cognitive ability.

 

[Tengu]

This was the long version, Broch; and the message I got was `listen to the experienced`

(How do you do research without books?)

(Or come to it, experienced people you can ask?)

 

[Paul_B]

In the past people had experience even though you might not have thought it relevant. Everyone kept warm with fires for example so knew about setting fires and keeping them going, even getting them going again. A skill that's not common now like it once was. Other things too no doubt.

One of my ancestors left England's shores for the new colony of Jamestown. Second son of a wealthy merchant he was lucky in that he had an education but that didn't mean he was certain to survive. He did and prospered possibly more wealthy than his dad whose money went completely to his elder brother. For the enterprising person America was a frontier that could provide and more but also take everything. You hear from survivors more than those who failed. It was in most cases a one way trip!

We can all dream of self sufficiency in its many forms. From small holdings, of which we have people in here getting on very well with, to true wilderness survival. The latter isn't something to be taken lightly and I bet not many actually do that. Most probably have a more modern form of it where you grow food and rear food rather than hunt and gather. You see them on TV and in books but they're not true wilderness, hunter gatherers.

There was a TV show not too long ago where a group of young men and women had moved to a remote part of IIRC Arizona. It was desert like and they were surviving from the land. They were growing vegetables, rearing meat and hunting to supplement their reared food. Key word was supplement. That's kind of what most wilderness inhabitants were doing. That's possible in a wide part of the planet but you need your own land and need to set it up too. I think that's what this young man should have asked about personally. There's probably a lot on here who know about self sufficiency.

 

[Broch]

I have been watching a number of talks and interviews lately, some interesting ones on leadership in the business world lead me to Simon Sinek. He gives one interesting interview talking about "millennials", of which OOFCP would be at the tail end of, and the challenges they face in the world. Sinek is not one of the people who are contemptuous of this group, but he describes meeting many who have a vision of the top of the mountain, but don't see the mountain itself and have an impatience to reach the summit. Its an easy video to find and recommended for anyone who has a negative view of the younger generation. It gives a good perspective.

My own exposure to post millennial students has suggested that they are much less able to research subjects and piece many sources together to get an answer. With a team of six, who had volunteered for the program I mentored, I could find in 10 minutes on Google what they failed to find between them in a week. They were awesome at their smart phones and using social media communications and could run rings around me at maths, but they didn't know how to find info on the internet when it wasn't all collated just so. They didn't use books.

I think that the greenhorns that went to Canada 1670-1870 were a whole other creature. They would have had more skills as a product of their time that were applicable than we do now. They would have grown up with greater mental toughness. Things that would cause modern people (I include myself here!) stress I think they would have taken in stride much better. Stress really messes with cognitive ability.

Agreed.

In addition, I will say this, in the thirty years I ran my own technology company I enjoyed having young people in the team. It's their very 'I can do anything' attitude that can, when properly harnessed, allow great strides to be achieved (with careful overseeing from the side lines ). In contrast, as a business owner, I often found older people (my age and occasionally older) depressingly fatalistic and reluctant to try to do something new or even put in the effort to try (a gross generalisation but true in many cases). I could often learn something from the youngsters; far less from the older ones.

I was also an arrogant youngster and there are still things I can remember doing that I cringe at. But the reality is that if I had not had that self-belief and, yes, arrogance, I would not have done a great deal of what I have done nor achieved what I did.

From the I Ching:

Youthful folly brings success.
It is not I who seeks the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Hey Broch,
What sort of technology were you involved with? I was working in commercial aerospace engineering with a fairly large company and youthful enthusiasm gets squashed pretty hard in that industry

 

[Broch]

We described ourselves as 'systems engineers'. We worked in that interface between computing, electronics and mechanics so we measured, determined action and controlled stuff. A lot of our work was MOD but we also worked in F1, robotics, rail, renewable energy ...

To be totally honest it was toys for boys; all great fun (if very stressful at times).

 

[oldtimer]

Every time I hear someone being played out to "My Way", I always think that maybe they would have done it better with a bit of preliminary research thus avoiding having to re-invent the wheel.

A clever man learns by experience: a wise man learns also from the experience of others.