Why is living in the midst of nature forbidden?

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

I'll explain:
Why do I have to ask for permission to hunt? Do I have to ask for permission to camp? Are there not places where it is possible to survive by hunting and gathering without asking anyone's permission? If I'm not mistaken in Alaska it can be done, but I don't know for sure.

in any case, if you have information about it let me know. I intend to live like primitive man, as Native Americans do. Do you know the places in Europe where this can be done? Thanks in advance.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Oh boy.

I am immediately reminded of something I read in "Call of the Wild" by Guy Grieve. He left his family in the UK to go build a cabin and live in the Alaskan bush. If it were not for the help, and charity, of locals, he could well have died, certainly he could not have lived there. The locals said it was a strange affliction of people from tamed lands that they would want to come and live alone in the wilderness, while for the people who were born to that land, life was about family.

I am not sure whether your questions are rhetorical, or whether you really want someone to tell you why you need permission to hunt/live in most places. Maybe there are fewer restrictions further East. Have you looked at Romania?

Have you looked up Heimo Korth. Where he lives, in Alaska, they have permission but it does not extend to his children.

Dick Proenneke is another interesting character in that part of the world.

You might get on well with Torjus Gaaren, who was once a member here. http://livingprimitively.com/ He lives in Norway and does a lot of primitive skills. His family has a mountain farm north of Fyresdal, Norway. The land is owned, or at least it is not free. We could cut all the birch we liked, but we had to leave the ancient spruce as they had commercial value. Hunting is controlled.

I hope you will forgive some of us older folk for thinking you might be a little naïve stating such a goal in so simple a way and asking those questions. It would help if you could describe your current level of experience, what you know, where you have been, and maybe elaborate on any plan that will improve your chances. Chris McCandless's story is a salutary tale. He was a pretty experienced traveller, but he still died alone.

You might get a lot of negative advice here. I won't say you shouldn't be discouraged. People are friendly and if they ask hard questions, or raise doubts it because they don't want someone young to get hurt (and maybe cause danger for others in the process).

My best friend has done some pretty amazing travelling from quite a young age, so I know it is possible, but he visited with local people, learned from them, and while he learned primitive skills, he travelled with the best modern gear he could get.

All the best

Chris

 

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

Oh boy.

I am immediately reminded of something I read in "Call of the Wild" by Guy Grieve. He left his family in the UK to go build a cabin and live in the Alaskan bush. If it were not for the help, and charity, of locals, he could well have died, certainly he could not have lived there. The locals said it was a strange affliction of people from tamed lands that they would want to come and live alone in the wilderness, while for the people who were born to that land, life was about family.

I am not sure whether your questions are rhetorical, or whether you really want someone to tell you why you need permission to hunt/live in most places. Maybe there are fewer restrictions further East. Have you looked at Romania?

Have you looked up Heimo Korth. Where he lives, in Alaska, they have permission but it does not extend to his children.

Dick Proenneke is another interesting character in that part of the world.

You might get on well with Torjus Gaaren, who was once a member here. http://livingprimitively.com/ He lives in Norway and does a lot of primitive skills. His family has a mountain farm north of Fyresdal, Norway. The land is owned, or at least it is not free. We could cut all the birch we liked, but we had to leave the ancient spruce as they had commercial value. Hunting is controlled.

I hope you will forgive some of us older folk for thinking you might be a little naïve stating such a goal in so simple a way and asking those questions. It would help if you could describe your current level of experience, what you know, where you have been, and maybe elaborate on any plan that will improve your chances. Chris McCandless's story is a salutary tail. He was a pretty experienced traveller, but he still died alone.

You might get a lot of negative advice here. I won't say you shouldn't be discouraged. People are friendly and if they ask hard questions, or raise doubts it because they don't want someone young to get hurt (and maybe cause danger for others in the process).

My best friend has done some pretty amazing travelling from quite a young age, so I know it is possible, but he visited with local people, learned from them, and while he learned primitive skills, he travelled with the best modern gear he could get.

All the best

Chris

I have no experience, I have never made a fire, never cut down a big tree all by myself, I have never killed an animal and then eat it ... None of this. But I ask myself, "why the **** do people have to tell me that you die every time"? If you're afraid it's your problem, not mine. And that guy… Chris… he Was he an expert? What the **** are you saying? He didn't even know how meat was preserved ... I will be young, but you are too old and you are losing neurons. Look maybe I am going against the forum rules but you are just talking nonsense. Watch Life Below Zero on DMax and get educated. The human race would have been extinct long ago if it were up to you.

 

[Broch]

With respect, you have asked the question in a very naïve way. I am free to hunt albeit with the permission of anyone who has responsibility for the land over which I hunt. That is necessary because they are liable (usually) when thing go wrong. I am also constrained by legislation about what I hunt and how I hunt - that is necessary because modern man accepts he has a responsibility to reduce suffering to wildlife and to preservation of species. Chris suggested looking at Romania, but in fact there are very strict regulations about hunting there - they may still allow hunting of bear etc. but it is very much controlled.

The reality is that man is too numerous and too capable of killing in all sorts of ways to allow us to do as we like when it comes to hunting other species. If you really want the right to hunt at will you would need to persuade an indigenous tribe, that maintains the right to hunt in traditional ways, to adopt you - but then you would be very much constrained by their hunting methods and controls and still not 'free' to do as you like.

In the UK, and most European countries, you are free to 'gather' but I believe that it would be impossible for an individual to survive for more than a few months if he could not hunt and fish. In the UK it would be difficult, if not impossible, to do that legally without a permanent place of residence that could be used to hold you to account and that is probably true in most countries. It may be possible to live 'off grid' for a while but not legally.

It's unlikely that an individual has had the right to roam and hunt at will for tens of thousands of years. You suggest the First Nation Americans do but I can assure you, even before Europeans arrived, they had their own rules and controls that prevented individuals doing as they pleased. Primitive man was a member of a tribe and lived and hunted as part of that tribe and for that tribe.

 

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

With respect, you have asked the question in a very naïve way. I am free to hunt albeit with the permission of anyone who has responsibility for the land over which I hunt. That is necessary because they are liable (usually) when thing go wrong. I am also constrained by legislation about what I hunt and how I hunt - that is necessary because modern man accepts he has a responsibility to reduce suffering to wildlife and to preservation of species. Chris suggested looking at Romania, but in fact there are very strict regulations about hunting there - they may still allow hunting of bear etc. but it is very much controlled.

The reality is that man is too numerous and too capable of killing in all sorts of ways to allow us to do as we like when it comes to hunting other species. If you really want the right to hunt at will you would need to persuade an indigenous tribe, that maintains the right to hunt in traditional ways, to adopt you - but then you would be very much constrained by their hunting methods and controls and still not 'free' to do as you like.

In the UK, and most European countries, you are free to 'gather' but I believe that it would be impossible for an individual to survive for more than a few months if he could not hunt and fish. In the UK it would be difficult, if not impossible, to do that legally without a permanent place of residence that could be used to hold you to account and that is probably true in most countries. It may be possible to live 'off grid' for a while but not legally.

It's unlikely that an individual has had the right to roam and hunt at will for tens of thousands of years. You suggest the First Nation Americans do but I can assure you, even before Europeans arrived, they had their own rules and controls that prevented individuals doing as they pleased. Primitive man was a member of a tribe and lived and hunted as part of that tribe and for that tribe.

Surely it is as you say, there were rules, in all societies there are. What I want to understand is if there is at least one place where I am free to do it. From how you speak, it seems that only indigenous tribes can do this and what would they be? Where they live? I'd like to know ... Thanks for your reply, yours was much more comprehensive.

 

[C_Claycomb]

OOFCP,
I am one of the forum moderators here. All new member's first posts must be manually approved before they appear on the forum. I was the mod who approved your opening post, even though past experience with similar questions has shown they can be disruptive and contentious.

I took time to post a reply listing sources that I thought you would find interesting and helpful. I could have said straight out that I thought you were an idiot, but I didn't, I went to the trouble of looking up those sources.

You in turn were incredibly rude in reply. I have approved this second post so that other members can see your quality.

This is a family friendly forum, swearing is not permitted. Insulting other members is not permitted. If that is your attitude, you are in the wrong place.

By your own admission you don't know much of anything, and you have the nerve to tell a stranger with 20 years more experience than you in both life and the outdoors to go educate himself by watching a TV show?

 

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

OOFCP,
I am one of the forum moderators here. All new member's first posts must be manually approved before they appear on the forum. I was the mod who approved your opening post, even though past experience with similar questions has shown they can be disruptive and contentious.

I took time to post a reply listing sources that I thought you would find interesting and helpful. I could have said straight out that I thought you were an idiot, but I didn't, I went to the trouble of looking up those sources.

You in turn were incredibly rude in reply. I have approved this second post so that other members can see your quality.

This is a family friendly forum, swearing is not permitted. Insulting other members is not permitted. If that is your attitude, you are in the wrong place.

By your own admission you don't know much of anything, and you have the nerve to tell a stranger with 20 years more experience than you in both life and the outdoors to go educate himself by watching a TV show?

Sorry ... Tell a veteran to go watch a TV show? I thought it was a funny thing. I would like to thank you for your patience, at least let me tell you this.

 

[brambles]

I have no experience, I have never made a fire, never cut down a big tree all by myself, I have never killed an animal and then eat it ... None of this. But I ask myself, "why the **** do people have to tell me that you die every time"? If you're afraid it's your problem, not mine. And that guy… Chris… he Was he an expert? What the **** are you saying? He didn't even know how meat was preserved ... I will be young, but you are too old and you are losing neurons. Look maybe I am going against the forum rules but you are just talking nonsense. Watch Life Below Zero on DMax and get educated. The human race would have been extinct long ago if it were up to you.

I get the feeling you would not survive crossing the road unsupervised, let alone a night in a tent in tourist campsite. Coming in rude, aggressive, with not even the beginnings of situational awareness for the internet ( I've never seen someone who is unable to recognise a forum moderator or admin last more than a day on any site) and wholly unprepared to accept answers from those you ask despite having zero education, experience or understanding of the subject you are talking about. Some people are not worth the time people might spend to assist them, the only good thing about this thread is that you have identified yourself as such so early on.

 

[Woody girl]

How much knowledge do you have?
Watch the alone series of people who are well trained and have much experience, and a great skillset living in nature. Most dont last long, and come out of the experience with lots of health problems.
Do you know how to deal with digestive troubles caused by a lack of food? How much weight can you afford to loose before you become seriously depleted ? Can you live outside in freezing cold and wet conditions, ?what about sunstroke? Do you know how to treat it when you are feverish and too weak to get water from the stream?What will you do about clothes and footwear?
How do you preserve food for lean times? Everyone thrown into these survival scenarios , while excited and eager to be stranded on a desert island, or boreal forest survival situation , struggles, and wants out in a very short time.even in a group.
Native American life is very glamourised. The reality is totaly different, and dont forget they lived in tribes, and had the knowledge of their ancestors and elders to rely on and be passed on from early childhood. Early in life, they began to train in their role in the tribe.
It's a very hard life.
I think you would be lucky to last more than a week or two without a lot more knowledge! But I sense you are young, worried, scared even, and fed up with the way the modern world is, and see that romantic version of the old ways.
Running away wont help, you would be much better employed in using that feeling to help change the world, and make it a better place for yourself, and your own future family.
I've been trying all my life, and I'm old enough to be your grandmother!
Good luck with that! It's not easy! But an awful lot easier than turning your back on it all, and trying to ignore it. Being a force for good changes is far more effective action, than what you wish to do.
I hope you will think twice.

Have just seen the above post, and I'm disappointed, as I thought that you genuinely wanted advice.
I almost deleted this post and gave up on you, but I decided to post it anyway in case anyone else wanted to ask this question.
Buena fortuna ragazzino

 

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

I get the feeling you would not survive crossing the road unsupervised, let alone a night in a tent in tourist campsite. Coming in rude, aggressive, with not even the beginnings of situational awareness for the internet ( I've never seen someone who is unable to recognise a forum moderator or admin last more than a day on any site) and wholly unprepared to accept answers from those you ask despite having zero education, experience or understanding of the subject you are talking about. Some people are not worth the time people might spend to assist them, the only good thing about this thread is that you have identified yourself as such so early on.

Yes, I understand your frustration. However I have never used a forum in my life ... You can leave this post or delete it, or delete me. Because not even I found what I was looking for on this forum, apart from one person who answered me properly. The rest are just people who, instead of encouraging and answering in a serious way, talk about how you could die for the jungle ... As if in the cities they live in they couldn't die easily and I don't want to deepen, I just want to say that you are a little pathetic , so it's not like you gained anything by telling me that I was disrespectful and things like that.

 

[MrEd]

I have no experience, I have never made a fire, never cut down a big tree all by myself, I have never killed an animal and then eat it ... None of this. But I ask myself, "why the **** do people have to tell me that you die every time"? If you're afraid it's your problem, not mine. And that guy… Chris… he Was he an expert? What the **** are you saying? He didn't even know how meat was preserved ... I will be young, but you are too old and you are losing neurons. Look maybe I am going against the forum rules but you are just talking nonsense. Watch Life Below Zero on DMax and get educated. The human race would have been extinct long ago if it were up to you.

wow.

check your attitude bud.


Do you not think life below zero is a bit staged managed for the camera? If you are basing all your knowledge on that then I am sorry, you will come unstuck.

You won’t be able to:
- just go to the shop
- charge your phone
- google search or use the internet
- or ANY of the modern things we are used to.
You will need ALL the knowledge in your head.

If you have never lit a fire, felled a tree or killed an animal how on earth do you think you would be able to warm yourself, find food, cook it, find water, build shelter.

naive is an understatement.
Classic younger immature persons attitude of ‘old people always telling me what to do when I know better than them’

 

[OutOfFoodChainPerson]

wow.

check your attitude bud.


Do you not think life below zero is a bit staged managed for the camera? If you are basing all your knowledge on that then I am sorry, you will come unstuck.

You won’t be able to:
- just go to the shop
- charge your phone
- google search or use the internet
- or ANY of the modern things we are used to.
You will need ALL the knowledge in your head.

If you have never lit a fire, felled a tree or killed an animal how on earth do you think you would be able to warm yourself, find food, cook it, find water, build shelter.

naive is an understatement.
Classic younger immature persons attitude of ‘old people always telling me what to do when I know better than them’

You are right. Seeing as we drifted with hasty conclusions and folks believing Rambo here. I leave you this website, maybe you make a culture

NewWorldWar.org

 

[Tony]

Wow, had enough of that, the next 4 posts he wanted to share didn't improve the tone at all..

 

[C_Claycomb]

Ah, I approved them and then went to ban him, only to find that he was already banned. I thought it fair to show his reply to Broch, who answered the hunting part of the question.

I didn't try answering that because I didn't read it as a serious question, I interpreted it as the sort of whiny "why can't I do xxxx?" that you get from people who have been told why, but don't like the answer and are looking for ways to feel better about the conclusion they have already reached. Perhaps that was in part down to the language barrier, Italian/English.

 

[Herman30]

Surely it is as you say, there were rules, in all societies there are. What I want to understand is if there is at least one place where I am free to do it.

Siberia perhaps.

 

[Paul_B]

Thanks mods.

I thought your first reply C.Claycomb was actually very helpful. I remember reading that Guy Grieve book on a Scottish wildcamping trip with a few mates. The intention was to walk the Skye trail from North to south shortly after t was first promoted by Cameron McNeish IIRC. It was the perfect book to read of an evening of UK wilderness travel.

The big thing going all through that book was that guy Grieve survived because of the oldest local who practically adopted him. His local surrogate father basically worked hard to get him ready to survive the winter. Nobody, IMHO, can expect to relocate and survive off the land. Perhaps I'm wrong with that but you hear of more cases of people coming a cropper like that?

I remember being told a story of a young man who decided to live wild on Rannoch Moor. He was found after winter dead in a bothy IIRC. I've heard of other cases where locals used to leave food out in the winter for someone trying to live wild. No idea how true those cases were but at least the Guy Grieve story is true and a good read to learn how hard the dream of the OP really is.

I once again thank the mods for giving this guy a chance but moderating his later posts when the chance wasn't taken. This site is friendly place to visit.

 

[Tengu]

Wow, someone got out the wrong side of his pram this morning, eh?

Thank you for attempting to be tolerant.

Shame I didnt come in earlier...

 

[Erbswurst]

The areas where one can still live like this are empty because it is relatively unpleasant there. A usual inhabitant of a usual west European country usually hasn't the needed skills to survive in such areas, but of course the skills can be learned if one is able to speak the language that's used in the area.
An important point is in my opinion to ask the people who can teach such skills pretty friendly and polite, because otherwise they will not care so much about if you get frozen the first winter.

Would I like to live like this I would try it in Canada, although I guess Siberia is the better option if one wants to live totally alone and independent. But I for example don't speak Russian.

If one wants to replace the equipment one will bring into the woods exclusively with self made gear one needs of course far more skills than if one has a financial reserve to buy new equipment after the first did break. That starts with ammunition and doesn't end with socks.

I think you should try it out for a few weeks in the next holidays in Rumania.
They just speak another Latin dialect, I have no big problem to understand them and my Italian is for sure far worse than yours.

But you also can just try to survive at first the next few weeks with a 120 litres rucksack full of Spaghetti in Liguria or Südtirol /Alto Adige.
I guess it will be an interesting experience for you to sit in a lonely side valley there with your tent in the snow, and should something go wrong, you can just hopp into train or car and go home.

Every year enough of people die in the Alps, but I can tell you from own experience that winter camping in Tirol wasn't a problem for me and pretty nice. I went there with a few friends though.

 

[Woody girl]

There is a simple answer for this young dreamer.
Buy a big forest, take yourself off into it and attempt to live there with no experience and refusing to listen to those who would ask questions as to why you wanted to do this, give you wise advice, and then , if you survived a long weekend, you might find the answer,... rather than being arrogant and rude to those with wilderness experience trying to tell you the reality.

 

[TLM]

Keeping yourself alive with hunting only is very tricky business and in many places impossible. Seasonally maybe but year round difficult.

I once did some searching on the subject, the result was that for staying alive on the Taiga latitudes the shore of an ocean is the place to be and very preferably on a non freezing cost. There are good examples from the NA northwest and older ones from the Atlantic side and from the Siberian cost.

But regardless of the place intimate local knowledge is needed to be able to utilize every possible food opportunity.