Why axes? (Axe v. Billhook v. Machete/Parang v.Saw v. Large knife)

[ToneWood]

Hi, over the last couple of years I have carved a couple of large bowls using old tools, an inexpensive Mora hook knife and a couple of knives (an inexpensive Frost bush knife, which is excellent, and a big old meat carving knife). I'm looking to gradually acquire a few key tools to help me produce a more finished result, more efficiently. I've started researching various forums for information.

The axe has made a big come back with all this bushcrafting started by Ray Mears. I am a fan of Ray Mears but I don't get the axes. Having used one this weekend, I can't help thinking, as I did in the past - they just don't seem to work very well as a tool (heresy?!). Specifically:

* They are usually heavy and often quite big, to carry and to use
* They are potentially quite/very dangerous, if something slips or otherwise goes unexpectedly (yes, I'm sure proper handling and maintenance helps)
* They waste a lot of wood, as chips, etc.
* They are quite expensive (to purchase a quality new one) and old ones generally need a lot attention, including re-shafting and extensive sharpening.

By comparison, there are various excellent saws (e.g. a small bushman's saw & an inexpensive folding garden saw) which are a fraction of the price, lighter, safer, waste very little wood. For splitting kindling, I much prefer to use a billhook (my father's or my grandfather's) - the weight distribution seems more controllable to me, making it safer.

 

[Siberianfury]

versitility is where the axe comes into its own. but it all depends how you use a tool, some people can do amazing things with axes, and others are more adept with a billhook or golok. personally i like both.

 

[ToneWood]

Oops accidentally posted that before finishing it & tidying it up.

I have not used expensive Scandinavian axes, most have been the kind of English made axes that all homes would have had in the woodshed. As a teenager I used to split big "rounds" for firewood with a big axe, mainly as a workout (and for firewood). In hindsight the big axe was not good for this job - and was quite a dangerous tool. In recent years I have started splitting firewood again, mainly for firewood (and as a workout), and discovered the splitting maul - which seems a much more effective and somewhat safer tool, specifically designed for this task (they can be quite blunt and still very effective).

For carving, so far, the billhook seems as good as the hatchets I've tried - although I suspect they'd be better if they were a bit thinner. Which makes me wonder if a machete might work better, or a big knife even. I've got an old army-style machete laying around somewhere that somebody gave me but I'm pretty sure it is as thick as the billhooks - although I believe the new Bear Grylls Parang is quite slim bladed (extremely expensive in UK but quite cheap from some US retailers).

I've split kindling from quite a young age - pre-teens. Sometimes with a hatchet but usually with a billhook - I much prefer the latter. I used to find them all too big/heavy but I now prefer to use my heaviest billhook for splitting kindling.

A few more words in support of the saw - more accurate, faster.

 

[ToneWood]

versatility is where the axe comes into its own. but it all depends how you use a tool, some people can do amazing things with axes, and others are more adept with a billhook or golok. personally i like both.

Yes, see what you mean. I guess a medium sized, fairly narrow axe could pretty much do it all. Although I find myself using a splitting maul for spitting big wood, a largish hatchet (or billhook) for splitting wood and a tiny axe for more delicate cuts. I guess and axe could probably be salvaged and repaired almost indefinitely too.

Last night I watched the video of 2 Austalian bushmen rebuilding a "shack" (for want of the proper word) on Robin Wood's excellent website. It was amazing to see those two quite old but clearly very fit, strong and skillful bushmen fell and process a very large tree into thick planks, all with basic hand tools (mainly very sharp axes). A wonderful video -- highly recommended, get yourself a brew or cuppa first & kick back, it is not to be rushed .

 

[sasquatch]

An axe is just one of those things, too big for kindling, too small for big rounds. Works great in between. I love using mine, it doesn't happen very often though! I also prefer a small one for roughing out carvings. It's all down to the right job and personal preferance I suppose?

 

[Tjurved]

Have you ever swung a very sharp axe? It is great fun! The motion of swinging an axe I think is very human nature, something that is part of our DNA!

 

[ged]

I have most tools available to me. Thesedays, because of what I do, most of the time I'll take a multi-tool from a pouch on my belt and use that.

But there are times when I'll reach for a 4.5lb felling axe as the most suitable for the job I'm going to do, and times when I reach for a chainsaw. It all depends.

I do like a billhook, and my preference, a large machete is great for splitting kindling. I wouldn't generally use any axe for that but it can be done, and if done right it's perfectly safe.

Where I come from, most of the things that people used to have in the wood-shed or coalhouse would have been called hatchets. I have two or three, they see very little use.

 

[ToneWood]

I have most tools available to me. These days, because of what I do, most of the time I'll take a multi-tool from a pouch on my belt and use that.
...

Love that. I've had several very specialist interests over the years, which usually required/benefited from the use of highly specialised equipment (most of it now sitting unusued in the garage ). Over the years, I've notice that I have started to opt increasingly for decent, less-specialised options that have broader application. I guess that also reflects how I spend my rather limited time too - with family, rather than a bunch of like-minded young lads & lasses.

 

[Ian S]

I've been thinking how to reply to this for some time....

It all depends on what you are doing, and what works for you. I also note that you talk about both firewood production and green woodworking, so different tasks with different requirements.

Splitting firewood? Yes, a splitting maul would be the tool to use. I suspect that a sharp splitting maul would work better than a blunt splitting maul.

Axe (handle between 20 and 36 inches long)? I'm unsure about this, to be honest. The larger ones can be used for felling, but all the felling that I have seen has been done with a chainsaw. Hardly anyone uses a felling axe to fell these days. They can also be used for splitting if you don't have a splitting maul. The shorter ones (20 inch handles) confuse me in that they appear to be too short for felling, but too long for one handed use.

Hatchet (handle less than about 16 inches)? Good for one handed use, and very good for green woodworking in my opinion. Choke up to the head for fine, controlled work, grip the end of the handle for welly, grip somewhere between the two for cutting effect somewhere between the two.

Billhook? I have one and I haven't used it yet. I know of one bloke who uses a billhook for spooncarving, and it's great to watch him, but I think that they give a limited hand position, and the idea of a heavy 9 inch+ blade swinging around the place makes me nervous. I'm also not too sure of the heavy concave profile of the cutting edge on most billhooks, and I think that the nose of the hook would get in the way.

As an aside, woodworking cultures where traditional hand tools are used (Japan, Sweden, Germany, maybe France) all have axes and hatchets, and not billhooks, as woodworking tools. I think there must be something in this.

Saw? The business for crosscutting, either for firewood production or for green woodworking. I usually carry at least one saw (and at least one hatchet, by my definitions above) when I'm doing some green woodworking.

Cheers

 

[British Red]

Cerain tools are much better for certain purposes as stated. Lets take an example - the "Scandinavian Forest Axe" - a 24" light headed narrow profiled axe.

Now fell a tree with a chainsaw and decide you need to "sned" it (remove all the side branches). Stand on one side of the trunk and hold the (long) helve one handed, striking the branches off the other side. Faster than snedding even with a chainsaw.

A maul or splittling axe is fine - but you need to know how to use splitting wedges as well for large rounds. When you come right down to it a pneumatic splitter is the quivalent of a chainsaw - pricier and quicker (and more dangerous too).

All tools have their place - saws are fine at cross grain cutting - but slow and poor at along the grain cutting or splitting. Thin cutting cross grain (like hedging or snedding) is still quicker with a manual impact blade than a powered saw.

Its not a question of "better" - more a question of "better at a given task"

 

[Something In The Woodshed]

I have a Bushcraft instructor friend who also runs green woodworking workshops who is just amazing with an axe. The few times I have been out with him he only takes a forest axe (Gransfors), no knife or saw. I have seen him fell trees, make kindling, and even skin game and prepare food. I once saw him split a huge log (big enough to make a canoe) using just the axe and some wooden wedges (made using the axe).
Its an amazing tool in the right hands.

 

[sargey]

Last night I watched the video of 2 Austalian bushmen rebuilding a "shack" (for want of the proper word) on Robin Wood's excellent website. It was amazing to see those two quite old but clearly very fit, strong and skillful bushmen fell and process a very large tree into thick planks, all with basic hand tools (mainly very sharp axes). A wonderful video -- highly recommended, get yourself a brew or cuppa first & kick back, it is not to be rushed .

cool vid! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcoTnER4Efg

billhooks and heavy machetes work really well on smaller stuff, which for most of us is perfect. as the wood gets bigger, only an axe will do.

cheers, and.

 

[cbr6fs]

Personally it's very very rare i use an axe.

No doubt that some talented individuals swing an axe in a very skilled way to the point of damn god carving, for me though i'm not a fan of small axes as i've seen far many more injuries from small axe use than big axe use.

I'll use an axe for splitting wood and if i cut a large tree down (unlikely) but i never take one out with me when camping or hiking.

A decent wood saw can accomplish most of what a small axe can do plus it's easier to carry and lighter weight.



To be honest you tend to see axes come up for sale a lot, so i'm of the opinion that many folks read up about axes, convince themselves they NEED one, buy one then realise how much of a pain in the bum it is to carry it when out, and how little they do actually bother to use it so sell it.


If you spend most of your hiking time out in the vast forests of Canada, Finland, Sweden etc then i might be convinced that a axe would be worth taking.
In the UK though unless your maintaining your own woods it's pretty pointless IMO.

 

[ToneWood]

...
To be honest you tend to see axes come up for sale a lot, so i'm of the opinion that many folks read up about axes, convince themselves they NEED one, buy one then realise how much of a pain in the bum it is to carry it when out, and how little they do actually bother to use it so sell it.

If you spend most of your hiking time out in the vast forests of Canada, Finland, Sweden etc then i might be convinced that a axe would be worth taking.
....

As a former climber (I'm big now but I used to be one of those "anorexic little weirdos"), weight was all important. I wouldn't even consider carrying an axe on a foot journey, a plastic handled folding-saw would be far lighter, cheaper, faster, more effective (they are amazing ).

My preference for snedding would be a billhook (less tip heavy and probably a cultural preference, I can't pick one up without my grandfather coming to mind) and chainsaw for bigger stuff.

...billhooks and heavy machetes work really well on smaller stuff, which for most of us is perfect. as the wood gets bigger, only an axe will do.

Yes, perhaps that is the point.

Super video, saw it on Robin Woods website (my favourite read currently). But even they used a saw to fell the tree (admittedly as well as an axe).

QUESTION:
I have an axe question for you: which bevel grind (left or right) should a right-hand carver normally use, with a GB Swedish Carving axe. (Ian S., do you have a symmetric-grind carving axe?) I've come across contradictory advice, both from good sources. But those advocating a right hand grind for right-handers find it doesn't work well for carving, which suggests to me that perhaps the left-side grind for right-handers camp might be right. (This is a pressing issue as I was about to purchase.)

 

[Hammock Hamster]

Personally (and i emphasise it is just that, personal preference) i favour an axe when in the field.

Not because it a better tool for one job or another but for its versatility with a number of jobs (roughing out carvings, splitting small branches and occasionally larger wood plus a lot of general cutting jobs).

Up until a year or so ago I tended to solely use a parang which was great for all but splitting and perfect for some carving jobs but like some on here i find there is something about an axe that calls to something deep in my sole.
I dont claim to be any type of axe master and know i have many years of learning ahead of me to begin to master it fully but to me that is half the fun of using one.

I also carry a folding saw at the one problem i found with an axe by itself is u can cut rounds from thin log (3-6 inch diameter) but never get the ends flat enough to safely split with an axe or maul.

Hamster

 

[Ian S]

I have an axe question for you: which bevel grind (left or right) should a right-hand carver normally use, with a GB Swedish Carving axe. (Ian S., do you have a symmetric-grind carving axe?) I've come across contradictory advice, both from good sources. But those advocating a right hand grind for right-handers find it doesn't work well for carving, which suggests to me that perhaps the left-side grind for right-handers camp might be right. (This is a pressing issue as I was about to purchase.)

1) Nowhere on this forum, or indeed on the Bodger's forum, where you have asked similar questions has anyone said that, for a right handed user, the right-hand grind axe doesn't work well for carving. For the record, it does. Brilliantly.

Some people just don't like the carver, but that's a personal statement of their preferences in precisely the same way that some people here don't like the Ray Mears Woodlore design knife. It says nothing about the suitability of the tool.

2) My carver is a right hand grind. I have moved the grind slightly more centrally, but you're talking about a 85% offset from a 95% offset. It's still a seriously right hand grind.

This is just a tune up of a tool, in precisely the same way that you'd hone and strop a brand new chisel to get it the way you want it. It does not suggest at all that the existing tool was inadequate, just that the final tuning needs to be done by the user.

3) This is the third time, on three separate threads that you've asked what grind. A symmetrical grind or a right hand grind for right handers. A left hand grind will not be optimised for a right hander, and the angle of attack will be too obtuse.

 

[ToneWood]

...A maul or splittling axe is fine - but you need to know how to use splitting wedges as well for large rounds. When you come right down to it a pneumatic splitter is the quivalent of a chainsaw - pricier and quicker (and more dangerous too)....

Its not a question of "better" - more a question of "better at a given task"

Interesting points all. I agree on the chainsaws are dangerous - I have a cheap one (about the same price 2 or 3 years ago as a GB carving is now) that I rather like, but scared the heck out of me for quite some time. I've gradually enhanced my safety gear (which you really should use - an extra cost, along with chain oil, petrol & dirty, smelly 2-stroke oil) and saw-frame over time, as I recognise that we naturally tend to become less cautious with increased familiarity.

BTW Since I started using a splitting maul (the cheapest - and bluntest - one available in the local small USA chain hardware store, as recommended by a helpful assistant), I haven't found a need for wedges or sledge hammer (although I have them). The maul is like an axe and wedge all in one - only better (synergy?), at least that is my experience. Splitting mauls are ace - highly recommend them. I guess I have more weight to put behind it these days but I don't put a lot of effort into it, they just work really well. I think mine is 6lb but I reckon I would go for a lighter one if I had to buy another.

 

[British Red]

Depends on both the wood and the section diameter. Something like a 3' diameter round of ash may well go with a maul - but a 2' poplar round? Not a chance - actually not even an 18" round in my experience.

I do have a maul or three - even a Cegga maul (he was kind enough to send me one as a house warming gift, nice bloke that he is). Its an amazing piece of kit for sure - but a nasty gnarly section still needs two or three wedges I find. Mind you we get throuh a fair bit of wood


3) My log stack by British Red, on Flickr

The log in the bottom right of this is the sort I cant split without using wedges


Full Log Shed by British Red, on Flickr

 

[ToneWood]

Yes, sorry Ian, forgive me, I was after fast feedback this morning (as I had place a provisional order but it has not yet been processed) and feared my question would go unnoticed - clearly I need not have worried. I certainly owe you a drink for your diligence and patience. That one website totally threw me. I think it probably triggered something an American realtor once told me is called "buyers remorse" (an irrational and usually short lived fear that you have just purchased wrongly).

The person who seemed most concerned about the asymmetric grind to me is probably also the Carving axe's biggest champion, Robin Wood. I was just looking at his excellent axe handle threads and noticed that he had a deep grind on both bevels of what (I think) he described as his favourite carving axe. Although it looked me like one of the grinds might have been altered quite a lot(?). As you point out, adjusting it to suit your need is half the fun/learning experience - I write that as somebody who has spent maybe 4 hours sharpening this week. The price of some of the blunt, rusty old axes with bad handles on ebay makes a new GB axe look like a pretty reasonable investment . As it stands, I'm planning to leave the axe on the order - thanks

 

[ToneWood]

Hi British Red, well the full log shed speaks for itself. The type and age of wood probably has a lot to do with it. At my last home (near Seattle) I had, 4 or 5 very large conifers taken down by tree fellers (or was it 4? ) and, I gave up my gym membership, and split them all by hand using the maul over the next couple of years. Most were as big or bigger than the block you show but, as I said, conifers and they split easily. I don't get to split rounds often now, most of the wood I get is smaller, although I did get to split some ash rounds (about 28" diameter) a year or two ago. I was going to let them age but my father-in-law said he'd already split his, and sure enough the fresh ash split very easily - ash seems only about a third of the weight/density of beech, I couldn't believe how light it was by comparison.

When I was a teenager we had lots of real big rounds - dad had a very large table saw (think gothic horror) and friends with tractors and trailers. With a felling axe, there were many rounds that I could not split, but some that I could. However, I found that if I left them to dry out (maybe a year?), they would all split easily. Not sure what wood they were, probably various, but there are a lot of large beech and oak in the area, maples and chestnut too. I've since been told "it is written" that wood becomes harder to split if you let it stand - but that wasn't my experience. Perhaps it tightens up after a while and then starts to let go again a bit later - or maybe it depends on the tree. After a while the rounds start to split naturally, especially if left in the sun. I wouldn't even think about trying to split beech until it was a year old (like iron). Your mileage may vary...