Why are bushcraft knives, and survival knives so different?

robevs73

Maker
Sep 17, 2008
3,025
204
llanelli
You got me thinking now Mark, may need something like that to offer myself.
I've made a few one offs more towards the utility/survival style but tastes are now leaning more that way.
Think your on a winner mate. Looking forward to seeing the results.
 

Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
45
Britannia!
Do you have the equipment to add pommels/buttplates to full tangs yet? I bet a chunky pommel like the Ontario pilot knife/bushtool would come in handy for breaking nuts and shells etc.

I like finger guards, although I know lots of guys into our game don't tend to appreciate them I think a forward finger guard is a great safety feature. I find the fallkniven f1's finger guard is too pokey, and could benefit for a more accommodating finger choil. That being said I also really like finger choils (mainly folding knives).

Jimping has its place, especially in mucky terrain.

No I coatings, they really aren't needed and again to cover those multitude of tasks, leave it shiny and it might reflect light shoukd you want to signal aircraft?

A good grippy texture in the handle! No need for smoothness as you won't be carving spoon etc, you'll be getting out asap, right? Holding on to it is important, so a good lanyard hole too.
 

Shinken

Native
Nov 4, 2005
1,317
3
43
cambs
Do you have the equipment to add pommels/buttplates to full tangs yet? I bet a chunky pommel like the Ontario pilot knife/bushtool would come in handy for breaking nuts and shells etc.

You only need a mapp or propane gas torch and some brazing rod and flux and a small piece of firebrick helps a lot. Brazing onto carbon steel is actually a lot stronger than welding (welding increases grain growth in carbon steel making it weak) If you can mill a slot in the buttplate for the tang to go into that will be even better.

Alternative (and better imo) method is to go stick tank fit steel bolster first then braze a piece of stainless threaded rod onto the back and either drill and tap the buttcap or braze a nut (i use threaded rod connecter nuts as they longer) to the inside of the buttcap.

If you use a strong handle material with the stick tang method of construction you get a really super strong handle and it is a sealed unit unlike the full tang, making it a very good survival knife. I torch temper the tang to a spring temper also which is probably the biggest factor in strength.

If anyone is interested in trying this method of construction the process is as follows:

Make the blade as normal (stick tang)

Harden the Blade

fit the bolster (wont be able to fit it after brazing)

Cut a V slot in tang and make a V onto the threaded rod to fit into the slot on tang

Braze rod to tang

Either drill and tap buttcap for the threaded rod or braze a nut onto the buttcap

Get some micarta and drill a slot to fit real close to the tang then drill a 6mm hole all the way through for the threaded rod (any remaining gap will be filled with epoxy)

Glue and screw the hole thing up

Shape handle

I quickly and very badly drew a little sketch of the construction

 
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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
46
North Yorkshire, UK
I get the idea behind the hollow handle, but why weaken the knife and stick it in the handle? Why not make a watertight tube and incorporate it into the sheath?
 

JonathanD

Ophiological Genius
Sep 3, 2004
12,815
1,511
Stourton,UK
Good hollow handles are very strong and very far from being weak in that area. And the sheath tube has been done. Check out my Andy Wood thread. It's a cracking idea.
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
1
North Yorkshire
The next one i think will be aimed more at the the Military side of things.... based on my own experiences. ;)

Believe it or not, rules for deploying soldiers state that personal knives are not to exceed 3.5 inches blade length...

... obviously, the issued bayonet exceeds this but is part of the approved weapon system, so does not need to comply with this rule...

Something like the TBS Grizzly with a sub-3.5 inch blade would be ideal.
 

Silverback 1

Native
Jun 27, 2009
1,216
0
65
WEST YORKSHIRE
Will do guys. :)

The next one i think will be aimed more at the the Military side of things.... based on my own experiences. ;)

Excellent.

I don't think that the Finns were too far off the mark with this one, i would take it over an F1 all day long, and for seriously less cash.

What a great and underrated 'Utility/survival' knife this is, particularly the longer bladed version.

2228932.jpg
 
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Believe it or not, rules for deploying soldiers state that personal knives are not to exceed 3.5 inches blade length...

... obviously, the issued bayonet exceeds this but is part of the approved weapon system, so does not need to comply with this rule...

Something like the TBS Grizzly with a sub-3.5 inch blade would be ideal.


they can often deploy with them but a lot get confiscated when they fly home

Ive a few out on long term test in various Military units doing well so far and not been mentioned about size etc
 

Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
45
Britannia!
Excellent.

I don't think that the Finns were too far off the mark with this one, i would take it over an F1 all day long, and for seriously less cash.

What a great and underrated 'Utility/survival' knife this is, particularly the longer bladed version.

2228932.jpg


What's the model/make etc?
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
1
North Yorkshire
they can often deploy with them but a lot get confiscated when they fly home

Ive a few out on long term test in various Military units doing well so far and not been mentioned about size etc

For an Ex, we often fly out on Civ aircraft under normal international flight/customs regulations - no great shakes there.

For Ops and some Ex, we usually fly in our own aircraft (or chartered aircraft) under our own regulations which are far more stringent.

Anything 3.5 inch or over will be found and taken from the soldier, yes usually when coming home but can happen either way and don't forget some places may involve going through the mill several times on more than one flight...

My recommendation to a maker would be to offer a sub-3.5 inch blade for UK military forces, this is based on my personal experience spanning over two decades of operational service... :)
 
For an Ex, we often fly out on Civ aircraft under normal international flight/customs regulations - no great shakes there.

For Ops and some Ex, we usually fly in our own aircraft (or chartered aircraft) under our own regulations which are far more stringent.

Anything 3.5 inch or over will be found and taken from the soldier, yes usually when coming home but can happen either way and don't forget some places may involve going through the mill several times on more than one flight...

My recommendation to a maker would be to offer a sub-3.5 inch blade for UK military forces, this is based on my personal experience spanning over two decades of operational service... :)


Im mainly dealing with Units not individual squaddies etc and a 3.5" parang isn't much use ;) mostly they go out in the Unit Supply cargo

ATB

Duncan
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
Believe it or not, rules for deploying soldiers state that personal knives are not to exceed 3.5 inches blade length...

... obviously, the issued bayonet exceeds this but is part of the approved weapon system, so does not need to comply with this rule...

Something like the TBS Grizzly with a sub-3.5 inch blade would be ideal.

Depends on whose military I suppose. We had no such restrictions. However....see next response below.

they can often deploy with them but a lot get confiscated when they fly home

Ive a few out on long term test in various Military units doing well so far and not been mentioned about size etc

We had no issues with blade length per se when coming home (as I said we had no such restriction) however bayonets and similar type military knives were forbidden. Not because of a blade length issue, but rather to discourage war trophies as under our laws, all captured weapons and equipment are considered property of the government.
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
1
North Yorkshire
Depends on whose military I suppose. We had no such restrictions. However....see next response below.

Now you mention it, yes I obviously mean Brit military.

That said, I imagine the US forces have far more stringent regulations.

Maybe 20 years ago it maybe wouldn't have been an issue, but times change and I think it is important to recognise current extant regulations rather than out of date anecdotes.
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
1
North Yorkshire
Im mainly dealing with Units not individual squaddies etc and a 3.5" parang isn't much use ;) mostly they go out in the Unit Supply cargo

ATB

Duncan

For a lot of trips, the issued kit is held in-country and passed on at handover between units.

Most squaddies just use the issue kit, for them to choose to spend their own cash you need to be offering something that is effective and won't be taken off them.

Jungle knives are issued as safety kit, so there is not usually a shortage.

Hence it would be useful to see an appropriate sized tool offered to the few individuals who prefer to buy a nice blade for their kit.

I'm drifting the thread a bit now, so that is all from me ;)
 

sargey

Mod
Mod
Member of Bushcraft UK Academy
Sep 11, 2003
2,695
8
cheltenham, glos
the quality most desired in a survival knife is propinquity! :eek: i know this because i read it in leroy thompson's book on survival knives. i agree most wholeheartedly. ie the best survival knife is the one with you. essentially this disqualifies any big honking knives from the title of survival knife. so not what the french call a "couteau a laisser dans l'armoire au quartier car c'est trop lourde"

i am often surprised by the notion that a kbar might be good chopper. really they're not, they are surprisingly light. and not that robust.

a survival knife needs to have a certain level of robustness, without over cooking the mass and portability. take away the silly beer bottle opener and the HEST is a good example of this. i have a small collection of broken knives, it doesn't take much to break a mora.

why not take a small suite of complimentary tools with you? ie axe, saw, knife, spade et al... well yes if your purpose is to go and do camping or bushcrafting for their own sake. but if you're in the field for a specific purpose, counting flutterbys in who'sbecky'stan, on a military tour or just third world travelling with a bit of camping thrown in this might not be feasible. a multi purpose utility knife might be all you can justify. at best a mora and a swiss army knife.

i think in the modern world, in travelling to less developed countries, the notion of a survival knife as a weapon ought not to be dismissed even if that topic is a little undesireable. i have read accounts of various scams with folks getting into the wrong type of taxi which then "got lost" only to be "hijacked" in the wrong part of town. the wee neck knives were used to save the day.

there are many survival folders out there which fit the bill of being around when you need 'em. but that might be a little out of scope.

so on one end of the scale we have the survival knife as last ditch tool but ultra portable, eg, a neck knife. the becker necker, the esee izula, or something like the survival wisdom orange thing posted earlier, http://www.survivalwisdom.com/the-wisdom-edge-tm/ going up to the hest. there is a fair bit of overlap at this point with a number of mora knives as they're so light. the hultafors for example which would fit the bill. the enzo trapper is similar in size to the F1 but significantly slimmer, as is the esee3

from the hest you move into the dedicated wilderness survival knife class, like the F1, bushcraft knives, esee4, the old school jet pilots survival knife and the bear grylls things. also the 5" beckers by kbar.

the esee5, a knife designed by survival instructors for survival instructors is only 5 inches long, but being a full 1/4 inch thick with a shortish sabre grind packs a huge amount of weight into a sort of small package. it sort of straddles the two later categories.

going up from there you start moving into the six-seven inch field knife territory and reaching the limit of what might be considered reasonably portable if only in terms of bulk. the kbar, the Luftwaffe survival knife, which is sort of along a puma white hunter style. the mod survival knife, the D pattern, the dartmoor and the tom brown tracker monstrosity.

also in this class, i know i shouldn't want one but i sort of do.....
http://www.heinnie.com/tops-tahoma it's an affliction i have i can't help it....

anything bigger is really disqualified from the term survival knife. do your sort of risk assesment, decide what you'll need to do with it. go from there. :cool:
any chance of you making it to the moot mark?

cheers, and.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
Now you mention it, yes I obviously mean Brit military.

That said, I imagine the US forces have far more stringent regulations.

Maybe 20 years ago it maybe wouldn't have been an issue, but times change and I think it is important to recognise current extant regulations rather than out of date anecdotes.

Yeah, my personal experience was about 20 years ago. That said, I still have many friends and family still deploying regularly. They still take (and return with) their own personal knives; usually anywhere from 5 to 7 inch bladed bowie style, although a few take 10 inch or larger Khukuris.

There are some units that impose stricter controls but those are just that, individual units.
 

sargey

Mod
Mod
Member of Bushcraft UK Academy
Sep 11, 2003
2,695
8
cheltenham, glos
There are some jet survival kits packed with a 12 inch machete when flying over tropical or subtropical environments.

yes, rifles too, and even first aid kits. but in terms of "let's talk about designing a survival knife", slightly pointless. no pun intended. :rolleyes:

i already have the ultimate in multi-role machetes, :cool: but i'd love to get my hands on a russian survival kit machete.

cheers, and.
 

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