Why are bushcraft knives, and survival knives so different?

[santaman2000]

What do I think of as a survival knife? Well for a general purpose (usable in any environment but ideal in few or none) something like these; cheap, and easy to sharpen:



Or these which are a bit more expensive, but probably a bit better in cilder environments:




Both will cut, chop, dig (even in rocky ground) and are small enough to go most any where.

As for the question of why do survival knives need to be more robust? Well, their use has already been covered by many others, but only one post touched on their storage The one where the jobber was referenced pulling a beaten old screwdriver from the bottom of a pile. True survival knives (like any item in a survival kit) often live unused and uninspected for long periods in said kits, being thrown about in various climates until one day, years later, they're pulled out for use unexpectedly.

 

[Samon]

Have a look at all the knives currently issued by military/armies around the world and list the simularities.

Also, try to collect information on real survival situations and find out what knife they had, and what they did with it.

Then use common sense and your knowledge as a craftsman to draw a few designs up. I doubt your sketches will different once you've done all that researching but its worth a shot.

Does a survival knife need to withstand all climates and practice's we can think of? Or would a design for a few generalised scenarios be better? Desert, city, jungle, Arctic etc.

 

[santaman2000]

.....Does a survival knife need to withstand all climates and practice's we can think of? Or would a design for a few generalised scenarios be better? Desert, city, jungle, Arctic etc.

I suppose it depends on a couple of factors:
1) Will you only be in the one climate/environment?
2) If the answer to question 1 is "no" then will you be reasonably able to afford a separate knife for each climate/environment and will you be reasonably sure to refit it into your kit with each change?

Of course one benefit of only having a single, general knife for all situations is that you'll probably be better (more skilled and more comfortable) with it.

 

[sunndog]

Santanaman, I didn't think my post was written well enough for anyone to pick up on that.
Our plain 01 steel/wood handled bushy knives wouldn't look too good after a couple of years floating around in a pack or strapped to a vest

the two knives you put up are good examples IMO. Something between the two would be about right for me. A little heftier than a ka-bar, to give some chopping ability, a wider blade for digging, and thicker so the back can be used for light hammering....but at the same time not quite as big and bulky as the MOD knife
Not an easy balance to achieve mind
Maybe the weight would be best gained from a little extra length rather than width/thickness. That way you have more edge to play with (lasting longer) and some slashing ability as well as chopping...I'm thinking slashing vegetation here btw rather than people lol

 

[TeeDee]

the two knives you put up are good examples IMO. Something between the two would be about right for me. A little heftier than a ka-bar, to give some chopping ability, a wider blade for digging, and thicker so the back can be used for light hammering....but at the same time not quite as big and bulky as the MOD knife
Not an easy balance to achieve mind
Maybe the weight would be best gained from a little extra length rather than width/thickness. That way you have more edge to play with (lasting longer) and some slashing ability as well as chopping...I'm thinking slashing vegetation here btw rather than people lol

Schrade SCHF9?

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56937&highlight=schf9

A few random thoughts , what do most Survival Independent Instructors ( IE Those paid by the various forces to teach 'Survival' ) use as a primary tool ? I'm thinking of Mors , Lars etc. Do they change blades when instructing forces?

Do people think a Survival Knife should have length and heft to be able to replace the lack of more specialized tools such as hatchet? I've never been a fan of chopping with a primary edge but it seems to work for people such as the Sami.

And by 'survival' are we purely limiting it to Military type scenarios ( which I guess realistically are the most probable) although you could include bush pilots , Solo Yachtspeople , etc into the realistic bracket.

 

[Shinken]

While many people do subscribe fashion when it comes to the woodlore type bushy, I do actually think it has been designed over time to suit a task. It is basically a wood carving knife that has been beefed up to be able to use for bigger tasks (such as splitting wood)

Most people who dislike the woodlore design, do so because it does not fit well with how they use a knife (I’d probably include myself in that)

If you’re going to have a one knife does it all it would look different to woodlore/Scandinavian style puuko because it will need to do more chopping, field dressing animals, cutting food than it would carving wood.

So you would probably make a convex, heavier, thicker knife that is able to chop wood for a fire, skin animals and occasionally carve some wood.

Bit of an over simplification and let’s face it, how many of us will find ourselves in a genuine survival situation

 

[Shinken]

Can anyone post a picture of what they would class as a functional survival knife?

Could have posted more/different knives, for a northern forest type enviroment this should be able to chop wood for warmth and do most other cutting tasks as well

 

[Countryman]

Depends on how far out there you intend to put yourself I guess Skinken. My hobbies take me sometimes out of this country into some deep green.

I'm not a fan of the "Woodymora". Whilst they are perfectly capable, they are a fashion knife.

The old frontiersmen carried a Bowie. Deeply unfashionable.Yes they were cheap trade knives but designed around a purpose closer to real bushcraft as a way of life.

Sticking my neck out, Hillbill built a knife that works for me. http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123436&p=1539204#post1539204

It's bigger than a woody because I frequently need to hack something back. As I showed on a recent Bushcraft course there is nothing you can do with a Mora that I can't do with the bigger blade. One of the comments about this knife is about Frontiersman funnily enough.

So for me just doing stuff around a small holding a Woodymora is not ideal. Woodcarving is not a necessarily a survival skill nor on my daily list of jobs.

A survival knife is different. The F1 is functional and light. Every ounce counts in fast jets. The Wilkinson Sword Dartmoor is for me the quintessential survival knife.
http://paulkirtley.co.uk/2011/dartmoor-survival-knife/
It's designed to chop, saw and notch. Yes you can do that with a Woody but if I was building shelter in a situation my life depended upon I would want to do it fast. Chop chop not rocking my knife through. Notch up not carve out. I might not be in shape to finesse things with a Scandinavian blade.

Big heavy blade that can perform like a hatchet. Unbreakable. Also big enough to give me a sense of comfort for protection.

 

[Clouston98]

Oh- I've had a bit of an idea. Base whatever blade/ tool set on where you are headed. If I'm in the boreal forest a machete will be of little use to me- much the same as an axe would in the rainforest. Mors uses the bushtool/ mora in that area- along with other essential tools, whereas a jungle survival expert would most likely use a parang/ machete and a larger bladed knife. The point is if I am in the boreal forest camping- there's no way I'm going to end up in a jungle 'survival' situation. - so take the tools you would normally use for the said environment. Once again my 2p .

 

[Kadushu]

While there's a lot of overlap between survival and bushcraft, I'd assume the difference is that a bushcraft situation is self inflicted whereas a survival situation is thrust upon you (possibly unexpectedly, but then why would you have a survival knife?)

So for me the difference is the level of preparedness leading up to the situation. For a bushcraft weekend you'll probably pack whatever kit you need for the location and tasks you anticipate. That will mean different toolsfor different jobs - saw, knife, can opener, etc.
A survival knife, however, attempts to perform the task of several of these tools. You haven't had time to pack or anticipate, you've just brought your trusty survival knife and some paracord wrapped round the handle. It's a knife, a saw, a can opener, a compass, a matchbox and a weapon. Maybe a particularly fat handled one could house a small tent too

As for build quality, well there are good and bad survival and bushcraft knives. The more jack-of-all-trades survival knives are likely to suffer poor quality because they do everything but nothing well. Perhaps a more modest one with a solid handle and just a saw back blade will hold up better. More budget for decent steel and less wasted on crowbarring in gimmicks.
As for bushcraft knives, well in a survival situation you'd just have to stop crying over chipped blades and scratched curly birch handles. Maybe the scandi grind isn't suited to batoning hardwood and you didn't bring your hand axe today but tough sh.t you'll just have to use it to 'survive'. Personally I like my tools to look used anyway. That's not to say abused, but anything that's carried around and used for hacking and making shelters is likely to show some signs of wear. I doubt that after cutting the roof off a burning vehicle or cracking into tin cans with the blade tip that many survival knives would look too shiny. I hope that by the end of my life my favourite bushcraft knives have been sharpened to the point they look like filleting knives! It's character

 

[TeeDee]

Of course there is also a danger of over thinking a thing too much.

http://www.drbeckknives.com/WSK-KNIVES.html

( not that I've used one but would be interested in honest reviews if people have )

 

[cbr6fs]

"Survival" kit is rarely well thought out or logical.
Most the time if anything has a "Survival" tag then it's to stroke some unrealistic fantasies the creator or user has come up with.

You really have to think about what likely situation is going to occur that will necessitate the use of a knife and then once immersed into this fantasy what use the knife will get in this scenario.

Personally i've hiked and camped across the world and the majority of those trips i didn't have a knife of any sort with me, so it's tough to see many realistic real world uses, therefore tough to think of design characteristics that would be useful.


The other thing is, most "survival" labelled knives usually come as a result of some "survival" type bloke trying to squeeze a bit more money out people, as a result their "features" tend to be "designed" in as a result of sales gimmicks than real world use.

Ray mears, Bear Grylls, Les Stroud, Lofty wiseman etc etc etc they've all "designed" knives that offer nothing more (real world wise) than a cheap Mora would do, some are good basic tools that aren't sold under the survival banner, others have gimmicks shapes or features that would need a LSD fuelled active imagination to think of practical uses for.


So my opinion is that if you're going to make a survival type knife design it to be as aesthetically to your eye rather than worry about real world use as 999 times out of 1000 it's merely a fantasy product rather than a survival essential that's used as described on the box.

 

[hog]

Well Harry Wolhuters knife that he used for years in the bush was nothing but a butchers knife and fullfilled a load of tasks, including killing a lion that was carrying him off to be converted into supper, so I suppose a survival knife can come in many shapes and forms.
http://www.whitesmoke.co.za/powwow/viewtopic.php?t=4482&sid=7570421c214f2e5121e2cc989decff96

 

[John Fenna]

Now I know why Oetzi did not survive!
His knife was not Stainless and it had a wooden handle!
As for Lucy's descendants - it is amazing that any got to populate the world at all!

A knife is a knife - use what you have ... or make one from what you have

 

[Ruud]

Used it a couple of days in Swedish winter (the original Tom Brown Tracker Knife that is), because I was also thinking it was a gimmicky knife and wanted to test it for real (swapped knives with a friend for a couple of days, he got to use my Enzo Trapper). It did a pretty good job actually. Ideal for shelter building and gathering materials for it. Although I dislike chopping with knives, I did chop with this one since it is designed to withstand it. Carving is a bit awkward at first but after a while you get used to it. Delicate carvings are pretty hard to achieve. Using it as a drawknife is where this knife excels at imo. The coating was superb to keep water and snow at bay.

Here's an interesting PDF about all the gimmicks of the knife.
http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/trackerknife/TrackerKnifeManual.pdf

Of course there is also a danger of over thinking a thing too much.

http://www.drbeckknives.com/WSK-KNIVES.html

( not that I've used one but would be interested in honest reviews if people have )

 

[Hibrion]

I think perhaps survival knives are made to be tougher and more durable because they could end up being used by someone with little or no 'survival' knowledge, while 'bushcraft' knives tend to be carried by people who either have a good level of knowledge or are at least attempting to learn more. As Ray says, with a bushcraft knife you make the tool to make the job easier. I think survival knives try to be many of those tools.

A survival knife might get left in a kit for years too, so they tend to be stainless. But I think most of us would prefer a carbon steel knife in a real survival situation as it can be easier to sharper without proper kit.

Also, if I had to pick a survival knife I'd have a small axe or a good quality hawk instead

 

[Clouston98]

I think perhaps survival knives are made to be tougher and more durable because they could end up being used by someone with little or no 'survival' knowledge, while 'bushcraft' knives tend to be carried by people who either have a good level of knowledge or are at least attempting to learn more. As Ray says, with a bushcraft knife you make the tool to make the job easier. I think survival knives try to be many of those tools.

A survival knife might get left in a kit for years too, so they tend to be stainless. But I think most of us would prefer a carbon steel knife in a real survival situation as it can be easier to sharper without proper kit.

Also, if I had to pick a survival knife I'd have a small axe or a good quality hawk instead

I agree with that- especially a small axe as opposed to a knife. My GB outdoor axe would probably be my choice- cracking for shelters etc but it's sharp enough to fillet a fish (all be it with less finesse) but it would get the job done.

 

[Tiley]

'Survival' knives are made beefier than the 'bushcraft' equivalent because they have to fulfil more roles and, in all probability, they're the only tool being carried at the time (in theory, anyway...). When bushcrafting, I will have my knife, a SAK, a saw (Laplander or equivalent) and quite often a hatchet or axe, too. With the given tools, I can be happy and comfortable in the woods. In a survival situation, with just one knife in your possession, you will be calling on it to do the work of at least four, distinct tools; if you add in the duress that you will experience on finding yourself in such a desperate situation where your normal, controlled and thought-filled usage of the tools is temporarily compromised, you would appreciate the extra 'meat' of your 'survival' knife, especially if it's made by Mark. Surely it is because of that that the 'survival' knife is built just that bit more heavily...

 

[Samon]

I'd take one of those estwing axes over a big knife anyday if I were in one of those fictional survival situations! Chopping with a 'regular' knife with an under forearm length blade seems kinda silly as proper batoning will likely be less harmful to your only tool and significantly more effective.

Digging with a knife?.. Well, ever heard of a digging stick? Hunter gathers/primitive cultures have and still do use them to great effect for hunting roots etc.

Rusting, hmm. I've never flown over to a jungle to play in the thick of it but arent traditional parangs made of carbon/non stainless steel? (Old leaf springs usually) And from what I've seen the natives get on just fine with their parangs!

Size. Long enough to chop or small enough to not get in the way when it isn't being used?

Is thicker better? Or is the grind the key factor is usabilty/durability?

Handle material doesn't seem too big a mind boggler as synthetic out perform any natural materials i can think of. Same with the sheath, go synthetic and include a means to securely keep the tools in place! Those firesteel things? Meh why not, go for a knife sharpener too while youre there. For the sharpener I'd go with a long rectangular squared edge piece of steel, similar in practice to a butchers steel to remove dings etc. Have that fixed to the sheath!

Colours? Bright orange, glow in the dark, pink etc. Ugly to some but practical through and through. And if you coat the blade to protect the steel go for another bright colour.

Thats my brain workout for the day..

 

[santaman2000]

......Digging with a knife?.. Well, ever heard of a digging stick? Hunter gathers/primitive cultures have and still do use them to great effect for hunting roots etc......

"Survival" means (among other things) conserving energy.

What takes more energy?
A) Looking around for a suitably strong enough stick to dig through hard/rocky ground and then cutting it with your knife? or
B) Just dig with the knife you already have in your hand?