Which winter clothing do I need?

[Dirty Karlos]

Hi all. I've been into all sorts of sports and activities over the years (mainly MTBing and road cycling), and I have MTB'ed throughout winter on the NY Moors.
However, I am getting more and more into going up the big hills and mountains of the Lakes, Wales and Scotland. I would like to start hill/mountain walking right through winter which is something that I have never done before.
I am wondering what type of clothing to go for, I guess I need the following, firstly:-

1. An outer coat, warm enough for the big hills and waterproof.
2. Trousers, again suitable for mountains in winter.
3. Boots

I have many other layers, base, fleece etc. Also, re boots, I am in the market for a new pair. Not sure whether to go for 3 season or full winter?

 

[Shewie]

1. An outer coat, warm enough for the big hills and waterproof.

- If you're going to be covering some miles then I'd look at combining lightweight options rather than one do-it-all. Generally when you get going you want to be able to remove layers whilst still keeping a good temp. Most of the time I live in a £30 Montane windshirt with just merino base layers with a weight to match the season. For foul weather I'd go for a lightweight shell such as eVent or Gore-tex Pro Shell. When camp's setup or I'm resting I add a Primaloft or down smock. You don't have to spend a fortune either if you piece it together well. Outdoor Research do some good gear and you can pick up their down hoody for £70 at Field & Trek at the moment. Depending on your budget there's PHD who do some quality gear. Rab do some good gear at sensible prices, if I was in the market for a decent jacket again I'd be looking at their eVent offerings.


2. Trousers, again suitable for mountains in winter.

- Again it's down to weight and cost, if you want waterproofs then it's eVent or Pro Shell for me. Some insulated pants are handy if it's really bitter on the tops or for chilling round camp. Rab do some Primaloft pants which pack down really well, it's not been cold enough for me to test them yet though so can't comment on how good they are. I'd layer up with merino again depending on the season, I get cold legs so usually take my bushy wear Ullfrotte 200 or 400g.


3. Boots

- I'm due a new pair of boots so look forward to hearing what folk recommend

 

[Dirty Karlos]

Thanks Shewie, there's some stuff for me to look at there. I don't like goretex from previous experience but I hear that eVent is the stuff to go for.
I like Rab gear, I have a Rab pertex jacket which is pretty good for all but the most freezing temperatures but is not waterproof.

I do like the look of Buffalo kit, anyone using that?

 

[Shewie]

The trouble with Buffalo gear is it's so damn hot if you're building up a bit of steam on an ascent. I love my Spec 6 shirt to bits but I can't use it for hill climbing even when it's well into the minuses. I quite often take it up to Scotland in January or February if I'm doing steady low level routes with the wife, it's handy at base camp too on canoe trips but it doesn't like the fire

 

[Retired Member southey]

Yeah I love Buffalo! um sorry, but I wear a special 6 shirt in standard squaddy green most of the year if feeling chilly, I use a buffalo 4s outer(which is a 2\3 by itself, I fine it very comfy but remember its supposed to be worn next to the skin, so if your working hard any thing under it will be soaked, wear as if worn properly it vents well and the pile wicks moister away well, I did have a set of salopets too but sold them on as I only used them a couple of time in Norway anf found them to be far too warm if your working, very hard wearing kit that does what its supposed to, i have the equivalent snugpac and softy shirts, but always go for the buffalo, which reminds me, I need to get the hood and fours season inner for the coming winter fun times!

 

[toilet digger]

re the boots i would settle for a 3 season boots, anything that you'll encounter short of ver glas will be of a short duration/ frequency until you get a bit more experianced but saying that i am a bit of a boot fiend

 

[spandit]

I was on an Outward Bound course many moons ago & one of the participants got dehydrated or something. The instructor put her in his Goretex Bivi bag to recover - I've wanted one ever since. Not clothing, per-se but a useful thing to carry if you get stranded

 

[Limaed]

Don't underestimate how fierce conditions can be in the UK hills in winter. Three season boots are not good enough for the UK winter, you must go out with proper four season boots if your going out in winter conditions on the high mountains. Something like a Scarpa Manta would be a good choice to start with. Additionally you should carry an ice axe and crampons compatible with your boots and know how to use them properly.
Go for the best shell clothing you can afford and carry a complete shell, cheap poor quality clothing will not stand up to winter. I use both Gore-Tex and Paramo, but other good quality fabrics work. Soft shell trousers are good but expensive otherwise fleece salopettes can sometimes be found quite cheaply on ebay, good brands are Mountain Equipment and Mammut. Make sure you have a map and compass and know how to use them and carry some survival gear such as a bivi bag and spare clothing.

 

[Imagedude]

I started my winter walking/climbing career aged 3, I was equipped with red wellies and a yellow plastic Souwester.
By 16 I had graduated to Italian army trousers (with the rubber kneepads, remember them?), a wool shirt, oiled wool Norwegian sweater, scrim net and a pair of nailed boots. Waterproofs were unlined Belstaff waxed cotton garments.

In the 1990s I briefly tried the layering thing with HH thermals, Polartec 100 lightweight fleece, a heavy fleece for when I stopped for lunch and a Goretex top layer. Boots were Zamberlan Mountainlite which replaced my now deceased nailed boots.

Thankfully I took a leap of faith and adopted the Buffalo pile system. I used (and still own) Teclite salopettes and their original Mountain Shirt. 2 pairs of Buffalo pile mitts still form my main handwarming kit. For lunch stops I would add a Rab down smock. I carried lightweight waterproofs but never used them. I then switched to Lowa 3 season boots with instep crampons or flexi 10 point crampons.

In 2002 I adopted the Paramo system, investing in their top of the range Aspira smock and salopettes. For warmth I carried a Paramo Explorer pull-on fleece and a Snugpak Softie jacket. The Softie has now been replaced by either a Rab Hoodie or a PHD Yukon down jacket. Boots are now Scarpa Freney GTX with Grivel G14 crampons or Scarpa Mantas with G12 crampons. I will try the Buffalo/Softie combo again this year to see how it compares to the Paramo system.

 

[Dirty Karlos]

Really interesting replies, thanks. I guess a lot of it is trial and error, what works well for one person might not necessarily be for you!?

At the moment I have a good base layer, lightweight fleece and a Rab Photon jacket. These have been fine for summer use in the hills of the Lakes and Scotland. On a recent walk up Skiddaw, the weather turned and my Photon jacket(primaloft/microlight) became wet through quite quickly, however, I didn't get cold but also I didn't need to stop.

As said, winter is going to be a whole new ball park at 3000ft.
I'd never heard of sallopettes before this enquiry!!?
Ice axe and crampons, I like the idea of new toys, no clue how to use them properly but I usually go by trial and error. I learn most things my own way, such as white water kayaking, that said, I may do some sort of 'mountain course'. It's a little bit daunting to wander up there on my own at the minute, I don't really know any people that are into this sort of thing, during the winter anyhow.

Cheers.

 

[Limaed]

A winter mountaineering course is money very well spent. Lots of companies offer one day to one week winter skills courses an example might be from Plas Y Brenin or Glenmore Lodge: http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses-welsh-winter.php or http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/course-wintermountain-skills-display.asp?course_id=38
There are many independence instructors around just do a google search.
Winter mountaineering is very enjoyable but its important you understand the challenge of the hills. Short daylight hours, avalanche risk, extreme cold and wind along with steep difficult terrain can all catch the unwary out.

 

[Paul_B]

Don't underestimate how fierce conditions can be in the UK hills in winter. Three season boots are not good enough for the UK winter, you must go out with proper four season boots if your going out in winter conditions on the high mountains.

That's what the gear shops say just before they sell you £220 boots, £90 crampons and £90 ice axe then laugh their way to their weekly or monthly sales targets. I've been walking in the Lakes in winter in snow, on compacted snow on ice for the last couple years with nothing more than fell shoes and sealskin socks. I've kicked steps up some very steep slopes without any problems I've been everywhere I'd go with B1 or B2 boots if I had them. AS far as high mountains go we don't really have them according to the rest of the world mountains start at 2500m plus. That aside unless you are going up more serious routes such as north face of Ben Nevis and even easier stuff like the Hellvellyn edges or Sharp edge you can use 3 season boots if you want. You can fit modern walkers crampons on fell shoes if you pick the right ones. Monte Rosas or G10s from grivel are flexible enough or the Kahtoole KTS crampons in alloy or better in steel. Even kahtoola micro spikes can be used on winter walks in much of the Lakes and indeed other hilly areas like it too.

More importance needs to be places on knowledge and experience I think. I suggest you go out with experienced people perhaps join a group. YOur 3 season boots (asuming you have a pair) will do for starters if you are new to winter hills. Even the last two colder winters any ice you came across (certainly in the Lakes) could be avoided even if that meant turning back or finding another way. I do think however you can end up with overconfidence with kit. Crampons on stiff boots won't get you to places you are not experienced to get to. YOu can wear boots and all the gear and get yourself into all manner of trouble so theya re not the most important thing. PErsonally I find other ways or things to do if I can't get there with my usual kit. That has only happened four times in the last 3 or 4 years(or more I can't remember further back) and what I ended up doing was just as much fun as the original plan.

I can heartily recommend joinng a local walking group or similar. You will be able to go on organized walks with a leader who knows the route and area. They will ensure you are safe and you will learn by doing it with people who know what "it" is. I did that and now I am one of the leaders. I won't lead anyone into danger partly because I am not afraid to back off when I feel it is wise to do so. Training courses are good but they take you straight into harder stuff from what mates tell me. I took my time and went as far as I needed to with people who could take me a lot further if I'd wanted too. I have had plenty of epics too which is a good way to learn. I also did that with whitewater kayaking. I did it and then went back for the pieces of paper well after I knew I could do it. Now in kayaking you need to get our 1 or 2 star before a club will take you out on white water. That is a bit embarassing for me who never kept his pieces of paper once I'd decided I wasn't going for coach status. I am now in the position of doing a 1 or 2 star award knowing I could waltz through 5 star advanced proficiency and teach the assessor a bit in the process. I find that pathetic to be so health and safety about it. Sorry off topic.

Boots are down to you. Get what fits well as that is important but do be aware 3 season can get you up a lot of stuff. If later you get into proper north face of the Ben sort of stuff then kit up for it then.

Ice axes - get light and a B rated walkers axe. YOu will be carrying it a lot in the UK I think (well Lakes you will). Poles tend to be more useful in winter I find.
Crampons - walkers flexible Monte Rosas, G10s or KTS are ideal to begin with. or even Kahtoola microspikes.
CLothing - same as early spring / autumn but warmer will do. Even a thick wooley jumper and a windshirt can do a lot in the colder times. If very cold then you don't so much need waterproofs as windhsirts. More breath\ble so less sweat in your warmth layers underneath it. Better dry than wet in winter so less breathable waterproofs in the cold are not too good compared to a windhsirt which keeps snow of and the wind. WIndchill is a killer. Buffs and hats. A simple wolley hat does a lot but lowe alpine mountain cap style hats are rare warm in winter. Gloves and even mitts I now wear mitts more.

 

[Paul_B]

PS you;ve asked this question on OM too haven't you? Always good to get second opinions though. Over here I think you get more buffalo fans. I nearly got a montane extreme smock version for £50 or £75 for the resolute version but they were rather mis-sized mediums. The resolute just fitted me (I'm a large) but I wanted the standard bufalo copy (actually better designed I think). It just didn't fit me. SOmetimes being tall and as big as I am is not good. They are too warm IMHO for most use. I wanted one for after kayaking. SOmethihng instantly warm to put over wet clobber to defrost after a harsh and cold trip.

ALso I'm sure there is a Dirty Karlos on BM forum too. Possibly roadcycling uk too. Always came across as know his MTB stuff from what I read.

 

[Ex member - Bilgerat]

Don't underestimate how fierce conditions can be in the UK hills in winter.

Agree.......

 

[mrs toilet digger]

i have to agree with paul b. i,ve got a pair of 3 season kaylands which i wear all year as they are light, but also have eVent waterproof layer. sealskin socks are one of the best things i have ever bought - i did'nt belief jamie how good they were until i tried them myself- would never be without them now. also montane extreme smock is a fantastic piece of kit, but too warm for much else than walking the dog- but fantastic for keeping warm or warming you up when at rest !! good luck and enjoy the hills!!

 

[Nonsuch]

For me there is a big dividing line between English and Welsh hills in winter, where you can get by with your normal gear and skills + an ice axe, and Scottish hills, where the situation is different - higher, colder, very short days, much more snow and more remote. The Cairngorm plateau is pretty well arctic. I have to admit that I leave the Scottish hills well alone in winter now and enjoy looking at them from the glens instead.

 

[Martti]

Don't underestimate how fierce conditions can be in the UK hills in winter.

I beg your pardon for asking but what kind of wind speeds and temperatures are we talking about?

 

[rik_uk3]

"Ice axe and crampons, I like the idea of new toys, no clue how to use them properly but I usually go by trial and error"

Trouble is in the winter an error can mean death. You really do need to get out with people who know what they are doing and or do a proper course.

I have no knowledge first hand of Scottish winters but I have a lot of experience of Snowdonia and the Beacons in winter and assure you that conditions can change in the blink of an eye so you need the right kit and the right skill set, 'trial and error' won't cut it.

Take into account you can loose about half a degree C per 100m climb so you can easily get a temperature drop of 10c or more on your walk, combine that with high winds rain/sleet/snow and you need your wits about you.

I wish I was fit enough to do this today Go get experience and enjoy the hills in winter, for me its the best season of all

 

[Dirty Karlos]

PS you;ve asked this question on OM too haven't you? Always good to get second opinions though. Over here I think you get more buffalo fans. I nearly got a montane extreme smock version for £50 or £75 for the resolute version but they were rather mis-sized mediums. The resolute just fitted me (I'm a large) but I wanted the standard bufalo copy (actually better designed I think). It just didn't fit me. SOmetimes being tall and as big as I am is not good. They are too warm IMHO for most use. I wanted one for after kayaking. SOmethihng instantly warm to put over wet clobber to defrost after a harsh and cold trip.

ALso I'm sure there is a Dirty Karlos on BM forum too. Possibly roadcycling uk too. Always came across as know his MTB stuff from what I read.

Yep, I asked on OM too. You tend to get very different viewpoints, but it's all good info. I am the DK from BikeMagic and RCUK {:¬)
Thanks for the replies all.

 

[mrs toilet digger]

It's a little bit daunting to wander up there on my own at the minute, I don't really know any people that are into this sort of thing, during the winter anyhow.

Cheers.

maybe you could start a thread on here and arrange a play date for some winter walking with some of the guys on here- to build your confidence etc. The men (and women!) on here quite often meet up in the woods and play with fires and knives etc, so i'm sure some would be but for a jolly in the beautiful winter hills....!! just a thought..to clarify- i meant ,like minded soles withEXPERINCE of winter walking who would be happy to share knowledge and experience on the hills; who would not think it too out of the ordinary to meet up with other people they have met on an internet forrum.