Which winter clothing do I need?

[Limaed]

Martti as I live and work in the Scottish Highlands I tend to be biased towards my local hills where the conditions are more extreme than other parts of the UK. Compared to Finland its pretty mild here, however our very wet maritime climate is perfect for producing hypothermia. Wind speeds on the Cairngorm plateau often reach over 100 mph during winter storms combining this with steep ground and the wet often produce life threatening conditions.

Paul some of your post doesn't seem to make sense, the first paragraph suggests you don't need any decent gear then your last paragraph list's suggested equipment?
I understand your comments about 'what I use or got away with' however IMO until the OP has the experience to make his own mind up he should be properly kitted out in the 'recommended' gear.
Proper boots are very important because they allow you to kick steps both straight up and down and at an angle. A four season boot with a stiff sole and aggressive tread pattern allow you to do this effectively and when the snow gets too hard your crampons will fit properly and do their job. They also protect your feet from turned ankles and the cold and wet.
I totally agree with your comments concerning experience and knowledge but to venture out poorly equipped is pure insanity.
Having spent over 15 years on Mountain Rescue and having been involved in the recovery of many fatalities on the hills, I think its important that the OP and everyone on the forum understands potentially what their up against when they head out in the UK hills in winter.

 

[Imagedude]

For me there is a big dividing line between English and Welsh hills in winter, where you can get by with your normal gear and skills.

Comments like that ensure that my local MRT and undertakers do a roaring trade in winter.

 

[rik_uk3]

Martti as I live and work in the Scottish Highlands I tend to be biased towards my local hills where the conditions are more extreme than other parts of the UK. Compared to Finland its pretty mild here, however our very wet maritime climate is perfect for producing hypothermia. Wind speeds on the Cairngorm plateau often reach over 100 mph during winter storms combining this with steep ground and the wet often produce life threatening conditions.

Paul some of your post doesn't seem to make sense, the first paragraph suggests you don't need any decent gear then your last paragraph list's suggested equipment?
I understand your comments about 'what I use or got away with' however IMO until the OP has the experience to make his own mind up he should be properly kitted out in the 'recommended' gear.
Proper boots are very important because they allow you to kick steps both straight up and down and at an angle. A four season boot with a stiff sole and aggressive tread pattern allow you to do this effectively and when the snow gets too hard your crampons will fit properly and do their job. They also protect your feet from turned ankles and the cold and wet.
I totally agree with your comments concerning experience and knowledge but to venture out poorly equipped is pure insanity.
Having spent over 15 years on Mountain Rescue and having been involved in the recovery of many fatalities on the hills, I think its important that the OP and everyone on the forum understands potentially what their up against when they head out in the UK hills in winter.

I agree with Imagedudes post and the fella above. Its Ok(ish) playing 'Mountain Man' for two or maybe three seasons in a bit of woodland not far from your car, but you go out in the winter with the same kit and there is a good chance you could die. Dressing up playing bushcrafter is a million miles from setting out on a winter walk in hills, whether they be in Wales, Scotland or the Lakes...its not play time kiddies, it is potential life and death.

 

[toilet digger]

I agree with Imagedudes post and the fella above. Its Ok(ish) playing 'Mountain Man' for two or maybe three seasons in a bit of woodland not far from your car, but you go out in the winter with the same kit and there is a good chance you could die. Dressing up playing bushcrafter is a million miles from setting out on a winter walk in hills, whether they be in Wales, Scotland or the Lakes...its not play time kiddies, it is potential life and death.

i would whole heartedly agree the hills- whether spring. summer autumn or winter - in any area of the uk are not to be taken lightly. they should be respected, and the potential danger any time of the year is ever present.
BUT i have not read any post within this thread to indicate anyone is being dismissive of the dangers and risks of such activity, or which called for such condescending and partonising comments.
there is a difference between between winter 'hill walking' and winter ' mountain climbing'. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1766

 

[Limaed]

Actually that's not the case it's perfectly possible to find yourself on what might be termed 'climbing terrain' whilst out 'winter hill-walking'. For example in the Northern Corries of the Cairngorms there is a path called the Goat Track, in summer this a fairly straight forward path up onto the plateau but in winter it is Grade I ground and has a potentially lethal run out if you take a fall. Many very popular paths in all our mountain areas are exactly the same.
The additional hazard of avalanches affects both the climber and walker, an avalanche can be triggered on terrain at an angle as low as 20 degrees in the right conditions where as you point out climbing begins on slope angles of 45 degrees or more.
This is reflected in the Winter Mountain Leader Award where a candidate is required to have logged 10 named Grade I winter routes prior to assessment. The ML(W) is not a climbing award that accolade goes to the Mountain Instructor Certificate (MIC), it is an award a leader holds if he wants to lead groups walking in winter conditions.
Its perfectly possible to walk up a hill in good weather with minimal experience and equipment and many thousands do it each year without coming to grief, but the facts remain that if you go out in winter conditions poorly skilled and equipped you are putting your life (and potentially those that will come to rescue you) in danger.

 

[toilet digger]

Actually that's not the case it's perfectly possible to find yourself on what on what might be termed 'climbing terrain' whilst out 'winter hill-walking'. For example in the Northern Corries of the Cairngorms there is a path called the Goat Track, in summer this a fairly straight forward path up onto the plateau but in winter it is Grade I ground and has a potentially lethal run out if you take a fall. Many very popular paths in all our mountain areas are exactly the same.
The additional hazard of avalanches affects both the climber and walker, an avalanche can be triggered on terrain at an angle as low as 20 degrees in the right conditions where as you point out climbing begins on slope angles of 45 degrees or more.
This is reflected in the Winter Mountain Leader Award where a candidate is required to have logged 10 named Grade I winter routes prior to assessment. The ML(W) is not a climbing award that accolade goes to the Mountain Instructor Certificate (MIC), it is an award a leader holds if he wants to lead groups walking in winter conditions.
Its perfectly possible to walk up a hill in good weather with minimal experience and equipment and many thousands do it each year without coming to grief, but the facts remain that if you go out in winter conditions poorly skilled and equipped you are putting your life (and potentially those that will come to rescue you) in danger.

a very valid point, and i totally agree, but what seems to be missing from the thread is an emphasis on keeping a level head and the ability to react to an inclement situation. i would argue that all the ability, skill and equipment don't amount to toffee if an individual has the disposition of a kitten. suppose thats obvious really but on the day, unless experianced, none of us know how we will cope on the day when the brown stuff starts flying.

 

[rik_uk3]

Don't forget fitness and common sense, sadly lacking in some folk.

 

[Ex member - Bilgerat]

No such thing as "Common Sense" Only what you have been educated to understand......


Yes some people are uneducated and uneducatable.... (Is that English?)....

 

[Imagedude]

...Yes some people are uneducated and uneducatable.... (Is that English?)....

I think you mean "Is that the English?"

 

[Ex member - Bilgerat]

I think you mean "Is that the English?"

Nope.....

 

[Teepee]

I beg your pardon for asking but what kind of wind speeds and temperatures are we talking about?

In Scotland, winds of over 100mph are not rare in the winter on the peaks and can last for days.

Some info on our most arctic place in the winter here

I understand that the high Scottish peaks are regarded by mountain rescue teams throughout europe as having the harshest climate in Europe, especially in the winter. Last winter, we had -27 and it dropped below -20 many times in intersecting valley bottoms.

Not bad for a country bathed by the gulf stream

Edit; just seen this was answered before

 

[rik_uk3]

No such thing as "Common Sense" Only what you have been educated to understand......


Yes some people are uneducated and uneducatable.... (Is that English?)....

Depends if you lean toward being born with some sort of innate knowledge/leaning or a more Tabula Rasa approach; contrary to popular education myths we are not all born the same and some do in fact demonstrate more common sense than others.

 

[Ex member - Bilgerat]

Just as there is a fine line between Acceptance and Tolerance... (However there is still a line)....

So there are lines between Ingenuity, Adaptability, Intelligence, Natural ability and retention of learning.......

Humans are a million or so years away from the basic primitive learning for themselves and trial and error in what would be a Natural environment.

We are now in an artificial environment, Over populated, Over technical and way out of a Natural place to live and survive.

A cold mountain for man is not a natural safe environment. Survival here requires learned and retained skills.

 

[Nonsuch]

i would whole heartedly agree the hills- whether spring. summer autumn or winter - in any area of the uk are not to be taken lightly. they should be respected, and the potential danger any time of the year is ever present.
BUT i have not read any post within this thread to indicate anyone is being dismissive of the dangers and risks of such activity, or which called for such condescending and partonising comments.
there is a difference between between winter 'hill walking' and winter ' mountain climbing'. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1766

Hear hear. Some people can have an argument in an empty room.

 

[Dirty Karlos]

maybe you could start a thread on here and arrange a play date for some winter walking with some of the guys on here- to build your confidence etc. The men (and women!) on here quite often meet up in the woods and play with fires and knives etc, so i'm sure some would be but for a jolly in the beautiful winter hills....!! just a thought..to clarify- i meant ,like minded soles withEXPERINCE of winter walking who would be happy to share knowledge and experience on the hills; who would not think it too out of the ordinary to meet up with other people they have met on an internet forrum.

Good idea, I might just do that. :¬)

Some interesting replies, and strong opinions, thanks.

 

[Martti]

I understand that the high Scottish peaks are regarded by mountain rescue teams throughout europe as having the harshest climate in Europe, especially in the winter. Last winter, we had -27 and it dropped below -20 many times in intersecting valley bottoms.

That quite amazing for a country situated in Western Europe. However I must say that the lowest temperature measured in Finland this year was -41,8C (-43,2F) and past fifty years or so the lowest temperature measured has always been lower than -34C (-29F) in some part of Lapland. You will win us with the wind speeds as speeds in Lapland rarely go over 25 m/s or 55 mph during winter. Even the fastest ever measured gust in Finland is only 39 m/s or 87 mph.

 

[EdS]

having been on he Cairngorm plateau in a +90mph white out, it really isn't a place to go unless you know what you are doing and are more than well equipped with winter gear.

Was fun having the mountain to ourselves while poly bagging down the ski runs on the return though

 

[Soloman]

Im still using my koflach plastic boots i bought 10 years ago,however you like them or hate them
Last winter i walked into ben lui the long way from tyndrum with no probs.
soloman

 

[Soloman]

Just had a thought,when i spotted the prev post.
Think one christmas eve,swift climbing up red gully.white out on plateau.Got lost 30 mins from digging in for the night.
Wife will never let me forget.( she thought she was rich)

 

[johnboy]

That's what the gear shops say just before they sell you £220 boots, £90 crampons and £90 ice axe then laugh their way to their weekly or monthly sales targets. I've been walking in the Lakes in winter in snow, on compacted snow on ice for the last couple years with nothing more than fell shoes and sealskin socks. I've kicked steps up some very steep slopes without any problems I've been everywhere I'd go with B1 or B2 boots if I had them. AS far as high mountains go we don't really have them according to the rest of the world mountains start at 2500m plus. That aside unless you are going up more serious routes such as north face of Ben Nevis and even easier stuff like the Hellvellyn edges or Sharp edge you can use 3 season boots if you want. You can fit modern walkers crampons on fell shoes if you pick the right ones. Monte Rosas or G10s from grivel are flexible enough or the Kahtoole KTS crampons in alloy or better in steel. Even kahtoola micro spikes can be used on winter walks in much of the Lakes and indeed other hilly areas like it too.More importance needs to be places on knowledge and experience I think. I suggest you go out with experienced people perhaps join a group. YOur 3 season boots (asuming you have a pair) will do for starters if you are new to winter hills. Even the last two colder winters any ice you came across (certainly in the Lakes) could be avoided even if that meant turning back or finding another way. I do think however you can end up with overconfidence with kit. Crampons on stiff boots won't get you to places you are not experienced to get to. YOu can wear boots and all the gear and get yourself into all manner of trouble so theya re not the most important thing. PErsonally I find other ways or things to do if I can't get there with my usual kit. That has only happened four times in the last 3 or 4 years(or more I can't remember further back) and what I ended up doing was just as much fun as the original plan.I can heartily recommend joinng a local walking group or similar. You will be able to go on organized walks with a leader who knows the route and area. They will ensure you are safe and you will learn by doing it with people who know what "it" is. I did that and now I am one of the leaders. I won't lead anyone into danger partly because I am not afraid to back off when I feel it is wise to do so. Training courses are good but they take you straight into harder stuff from what mates tell me. I took my time and went as far as I needed to with people who could take me a lot further if I'd wanted too. I have had plenty of epics too which is a good way to learn. I also did that with whitewater kayaking. I did it and then went back for the pieces of paper well after I knew I could do it. Now in kayaking you need to get our 1 or 2 star before a club will take you out on white water. That is a bit embarassing for me who never kept his pieces of paper once I'd decided I wasn't going for coach status. I am now in the position of doing a 1 or 2 star award knowing I could waltz through 5 star advanced proficiency and teach the assessor a bit in the process. I find that pathetic to be so health and safety about it. Sorry off topic.Boots are down to you. Get what fits well as that is important but do be aware 3 season can get you up a lot of stuff. If later you get into proper north face of the Ben sort of stuff then kit up for it then.Ice axes - get light and a B rated walkers axe. YOu will be carrying it a lot in the UK I think (well Lakes you will). Poles tend to be more useful in winter I find.Crampons - walkers flexible Monte Rosas, G10s or KTS are ideal to begin with. or even Kahtoola microspikes.CLothing - same as early spring / autumn but warmer will do. Even a thick wooley jumper and a windshirt can do a lot in the colder times. If very cold then you don't so much need waterproofs as windhsirts. More breath\ble so less sweat in your warmth layers underneath it. Better dry than wet in winter so less breathable waterproofs in the cold are not too good compared to a windhsirt which keeps snow of and the wind. WIndchill is a killer. Buffs and hats. A simple wolley hat does a lot but lowe alpine mountain cap style hats are rare warm in winter. Gloves and even mitts I now wear mitts more.

Paul,


Have you any actual tangible experience with any of the kit you have mentioned in the above post?? By experience I mean using it on a mountain in winter conditions rather than reading a review in trail walker??

People get away with a lot in the UK hills such a wearing trail shoes on snow slopes and having an ice axe slung on the back of the day sack on a 40 degree snow slope and a pair of walking poles in their hands. All of that is fine and dandy until something goes wrong...


I might be doing something wrong but I struggle to kick steps in refrozen snow pack in 4 season boots with adequate ankle support etc. I couldn't kick steps in refrozen snow or hard snow pack in trail shoes and I've been on the odd snowy mountain.

My advice as echoed by other on this thread for anyone wanting to venture into the UK mountains in winter in snow an ice conditions is to initially get some training done on how to use an Ice axe and crampons correctly, how to self arrest correctly with and without an ice axe and how to read winter terrain correctly and understand snow pack conditions.

This might be a day out with mates if they are themselves competent. But PYB or Glenmore Lodge run some very good courses.


A lot of clothing and kit you have for summer hill walking translates directly over to less technical winter walking. Generally the most likely upgrade is to footwear that can accept a crampon. Having run lots of winter course and fitted a wide variety of crampons to a lot of boots a really good rule of thumb is the more ridged the sole of the boot the better crampons fit and work.Winter hillwalking and climbing is really good fun it's also challenging. Correct equipment is vital IMHO as are correct and competently used skills.HTHJohn