Which Rucksack For DofE?
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I carry all my camping gear for several days in 50l, you don't need a huge pack. As several other people have said, what you need is a comfortable pack that fits you.
The LA Kibo would be a good choice, and the advice about actually trying the sack on is excellent - you can read all the reviews, but its a very individual thing. Cotswolds are decently priced, and you should get discount, either via the D of E scheme, or using the Explore card 10% when you make your first purchase with it.
This type of question comes up all the time on Outdoor Magic http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/duke-of-edinburugh-bronze-rucksack-boots-tent/52632.html & http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/daysack/expedition-sack/40944.html for instance. I notice that the second thread has a recommendation for a 65L Lowe Alpine TFX Ridge rucksack. The Kibo is the nearest your going to get for less than a ton (£90 at Go Outdoors), so its not a bad substitute (my LA pack is over ten years old, and still fine). The Berghaus Torridon seems a bit of a standard, at £85 think of it as a baseline.
Keep an eye on the Outdoor Magic Bargain thread - http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/bargain-alert/7436.html - all sorts come up, and I recently got great deals on POD drybags and turbolighters (£2.99 each!). In fact the POD deal was at Millets, and they also had bombproof POD 65L sacks for £80 with discount codes for Fathers Day - I was tempted...
Its always worth looking around the net - MacPac sacks for £89 http://www.wildtrak.com/product.asp?ID=4140 , and I'm sure there are other bargains. Also increase your buying power buy getting baselayesr from the likes of Aldi, and TK Maxx, and dont forget Alpkit for sleeping mats, drybags and headtorches.
Just leave Mountain Warehouse alone...
This type of question comes up all the time on Outdoor Magic http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/duke-of-edinburugh-bronze-rucksack-boots-tent/52632.html & http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/daysack/expedition-sack/40944.html for instance. I notice that the second thread has a recommendation for a 65L Lowe Alpine TFX Ridge rucksack. The Kibo is the nearest your going to get for less than a ton (£90 at Go Outdoors), so its not a bad substitute (my LA pack is over ten years old, and still fine). The Berghaus Torridon seems a bit of a standard, at £85 think of it as a baseline.
Keep an eye on the Outdoor Magic Bargain thread - http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/bargain-alert/7436.html - all sorts come up, and I recently got great deals on POD drybags and turbolighters (£2.99 each!). In fact the POD deal was at Millets, and they also had bombproof POD 65L sacks for £80 with discount codes for Fathers Day - I was tempted...
Its always worth looking around the net - MacPac sacks for £89 http://www.wildtrak.com/product.asp?ID=4140 , and I'm sure there are other bargains. Also increase your buying power buy getting baselayesr from the likes of Aldi, and TK Maxx, and dont forget Alpkit for sleeping mats, drybags and headtorches.
Just leave Mountain Warehouse alone...
I don't know of any specific bags but your post caught my eye. i did my DofE Bronze a few years ago with the Air Cadets and i used an 80 litre bag which was plenty big enough. i could have most slickly used a smaller bag, but that was the bag i used for everything and its better to have too much room than not enough. the height issue on a bag this size for myself was non existent, i am only 5' 4" and found no issue with a bag that size.
i know that some rucksacks either come with or can have waterproof coverings available and even if they do come with this can raise the price. i found that if all of your kit was to be put in side rubble sacks or heavy duty black bin bags and then put inside the rucksack everything will stay perfectly dry and if you pack right organised so you'd only need to take one bag out at a time.
As for the future use of a Rucksack, i used this 80 litre bag for every trip away, from overnight expeditions to week long camps. plenty of room for all of the necessary clothing and kit for most trips away.
i know that some rucksacks either come with or can have waterproof coverings available and even if they do come with this can raise the price. i found that if all of your kit was to be put in side rubble sacks or heavy duty black bin bags and then put inside the rucksack everything will stay perfectly dry and if you pack right organised so you'd only need to take one bag out at a time.
As for the future use of a Rucksack, i used this 80 litre bag for every trip away, from overnight expeditions to week long camps. plenty of room for all of the necessary clothing and kit for most trips away.
It's DoE season around here and today we've had 4 sets of students walk past backpackinglight headquarters in the warm day. Poor kids totally overloaded and seriously struggling with it.
All with rucksacks 65 litres loaded to the hilt and thoroughly miserable. Carrying more than 20% of your body weight isn't good for the long term effects to the skeletal structure! even more so when these kids probably don't ever carry heavy weights any more. So the shock to the system is considerable and worse still, their interest in the outdoors is being curtailed far too early.
We always try and suggest they should look at 50/55lt and no more. The Vaude Brenta is ideal, as the back system is very adjustable and more importantly light. Unlike the Berghaus and Low Alpine versions. The less space they have the less they can pack and the more enjoyment they will get from it. The instructors / accessors are the ones who need educating the most. Depending on their era appears to directly effect the weight of the packs and content of the students.
maybe I'll grab my podcast gear tomorrow and ask them if they are enjoying it when they pass. Just to get straight from the horses mouth.
All with rucksacks 65 litres loaded to the hilt and thoroughly miserable. Carrying more than 20% of your body weight isn't good for the long term effects to the skeletal structure! even more so when these kids probably don't ever carry heavy weights any more. So the shock to the system is considerable and worse still, their interest in the outdoors is being curtailed far too early.
We always try and suggest they should look at 50/55lt and no more. The Vaude Brenta is ideal, as the back system is very adjustable and more importantly light. Unlike the Berghaus and Low Alpine versions. The less space they have the less they can pack and the more enjoyment they will get from it. The instructors / accessors are the ones who need educating the most. Depending on their era appears to directly effect the weight of the packs and content of the students.
maybe I'll grab my podcast gear tomorrow and ask them if they are enjoying it when they pass. Just to get straight from the horses mouth.
Ditto.
If you've got to packhorse it take a proper frame. If your not walking far who cares. If your not that big take the osprey exos.
Stick all your needed items on here, I'm sure the members will get you light and cheap stuff linked.
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Had three rucksacks deliverd tonight around dinner time from Blacks Not bad seeming they were only sent out this morning.
My daughter has chosen the Burghaus Women’s C7 1 Series 60 + 10 Rucksack. It is shorter than the vango shepa and she is happy with it. It has some good reviews and at the end of the day with all the discounts I received I only paid £52 for a rucksack delived to my door. So I'm not complaining
So it is back to the shop with the other two tomorrow.
Just read Bob's post.
I did talk to my daughter about the weight she will have to carry and she just gave me her school bag to hold. Boy dose she carry some stuff. Now I have no worries about her carrying her gear. I am sorting out with her what she has to carry and what she can share with others... i.e the three person tent.
She wanted to take pack of hexis to cook on but she is not aloud.
I tried to get her to take my honey stove, but she is complaing it is to fiddlie to put together, even when I have re-shown her how to put it together (sorry Bob).
And she dose not like the jet boil for some strange reason.
So now she is going to take the trangia and the base of my Mkettle to put it in with a couple of spare tent pegs to put the cook pot on.
I have no worrys about my daughter doing the DofE but I am concerned though about some of the other kids she is doing the DofE with they seem to be doing some silly things. She told some girls ran off from one of her groups and managed to get them self's lost.
And some boy tried to stamp on her (my) tent untill she showed him the rubber peg hammer and offered to introduce him to it !
Hopfully nothing else will happen.
My daughter has chosen the Burghaus Women’s C7 1 Series 60 + 10 Rucksack. It is shorter than the vango shepa and she is happy with it. It has some good reviews and at the end of the day with all the discounts I received I only paid £52 for a rucksack delived to my door. So I'm not complaining
So it is back to the shop with the other two tomorrow.
Just read Bob's post.
I did talk to my daughter about the weight she will have to carry and she just gave me her school bag to hold. Boy dose she carry some stuff. Now I have no worries about her carrying her gear. I am sorting out with her what she has to carry and what she can share with others... i.e the three person tent.
She wanted to take pack of hexis to cook on but she is not aloud.
I tried to get her to take my honey stove, but she is complaing it is to fiddlie to put together, even when I have re-shown her how to put it together (sorry Bob).
And she dose not like the jet boil for some strange reason.
So now she is going to take the trangia and the base of my Mkettle to put it in with a couple of spare tent pegs to put the cook pot on.
I have no worrys about my daughter doing the DofE but I am concerned though about some of the other kids she is doing the DofE with they seem to be doing some silly things. She told some girls ran off from one of her groups and managed to get them self's lost.
And some boy tried to stamp on her (my) tent untill she showed him the rubber peg hammer and offered to introduce him to it !
Hopfully nothing else will happen.
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It's only on the large side for me for the kind of trips I've been making which tend to be long weekends during spring/summer so don't need so much food or gear. If I was doing longer trips and/or more seasons then it would come into it's own. You might want to take a look at the same bag in 66L size which is still great value and decent quality and config' ?
Cheers, Paul
Take all your equipment to go outdoors or cotswold outdoor shop and test pack it all. Load packs up that you already have in mind and try them on. Shop staff are very helpful.
Once you have found one you like, buy it from the shop that helped you the most. I'm a huge fan of Lowe Alpine packs but they might be a little pricey for what you need.
I did what I said today and stopped and chatted to the Bronze DoE group who came past my door earlier. Sadly they were lost and a good 3 miles off route bless 'em.
The weather was pleasantly warm and sunny, and all of them aged 15-16. None of them were taller than 5'6" and all were complaining about weight. So they had to buy everything themselves and school supplied the tents (3 person I think). They all had 60+ bags, which didn't fit, loaded to the hilt and they were virtually on their knees.
"Are you enjoying it?" said I. "No way" they replied. "Based on this experience would you do it again". "Hmmm maybe".
Yes of course youngsters are tougher than they think, and 'can' carry weight if they need to, but my point is that they 'shouldn't' be carrying this weight, especially in this day and age where there are numerous options. Not just at the expensive end of the arena as there's plenty of serviceable stuff in the own brand shops too.
However I do know from our own daughters doing it (one had nothing but rain, the other had blistering heat over the Brecons) they can't be told and have to learn the hard way usually doing Bronze, that they have to be responsible for making their own decisions about what they take and why. Certainly when ours did Silver and Gold they all of a sudden started listening to the 'olds'
.
All the same it is frustrating to see them in such a state, so I'm going to carry a few cards and chat to more as they pass. I think the best way for them to understand the potential benefits in the difference is while they are doing the event, where 'weight' all of a sudden is the only thing on their mind, apart that is, from 'food' and 'where are we?'.
The weather was pleasantly warm and sunny, and all of them aged 15-16. None of them were taller than 5'6" and all were complaining about weight. So they had to buy everything themselves and school supplied the tents (3 person I think). They all had 60+ bags, which didn't fit, loaded to the hilt and they were virtually on their knees.
"Are you enjoying it?" said I. "No way" they replied. "Based on this experience would you do it again". "Hmmm maybe".
Yes of course youngsters are tougher than they think, and 'can' carry weight if they need to, but my point is that they 'shouldn't' be carrying this weight, especially in this day and age where there are numerous options. Not just at the expensive end of the arena as there's plenty of serviceable stuff in the own brand shops too.
However I do know from our own daughters doing it (one had nothing but rain, the other had blistering heat over the Brecons) they can't be told and have to learn the hard way usually doing Bronze, that they have to be responsible for making their own decisions about what they take and why. Certainly when ours did Silver and Gold they all of a sudden started listening to the 'olds'
.All the same it is frustrating to see them in such a state, so I'm going to carry a few cards and chat to more as they pass. I think the best way for them to understand the potential benefits in the difference is while they are doing the event, where 'weight' all of a sudden is the only thing on their mind, apart that is, from 'food' and 'where are we?'.
@ bob
Really bob your company should have done a recommended kit along time ago, shame on you. I see the D of E everywhere, all thoroughly peeved. I don't think the should be made to walk in the bronze, just camp somewhere remote (condoms are a vital supply we know).
The recommended kit runs to a 2.5kg rucksack, 1 kg of tent, a full trangia set up cups and saucers, a sleeping bag of 2kg, and they take god knows what else. That's 6.5kg before any thing like inflatable matress food water a full wardrobe, and they're only 50kg and 5foot nothing. For thoes items in the summer, even with relatively cheap stuff I would wish to carry no more than 3kg in the summer when going light, not that I do that, but kids do not need a subzero sleeping bag and a heavy lift bag. I have had pure hatred from D of E kids when I turn up on my own whilst smiling, pure hatred.
Osprey exos, 750g
Half to a quater of a small trangia and cup and bowl 500g
Vango super light sleeping bag 750
Half a lightweight tent 750
2.75kg
Really bob your company should have done a recommended kit along time ago, shame on you. I see the D of E everywhere, all thoroughly peeved. I don't think the should be made to walk in the bronze, just camp somewhere remote (condoms are a vital supply we know).
The recommended kit runs to a 2.5kg rucksack, 1 kg of tent, a full trangia set up cups and saucers, a sleeping bag of 2kg, and they take god knows what else. That's 6.5kg before any thing like inflatable matress food water a full wardrobe, and they're only 50kg and 5foot nothing. For thoes items in the summer, even with relatively cheap stuff I would wish to carry no more than 3kg in the summer when going light, not that I do that, but kids do not need a subzero sleeping bag and a heavy lift bag. I have had pure hatred from D of E kids when I turn up on my own whilst smiling, pure hatred.
Osprey exos, 750g
Half to a quater of a small trangia and cup and bowl 500g
Vango super light sleeping bag 750
Half a lightweight tent 750
2.75kg
I went to Cotswolds today, got measured up, tried on a couple of packs for size, narrowed it down to a few which I then asked to be loaded up with ~6kgs, and am now the proud owner of a Berghaus Torridon 65. I paid £72.25 for it and am very happy with that and the service from Cotswolds. I am going to be trying it out this weekend on a DofE training camp, and if all is well it will accompany me on my expeditions in the autumn of this year. If it does not hold up to my expectations, you can all expect to see it on the trades next week!!
Thanks enormously for all of your help,
Thomas.
Thanks enormously for all of your help,
Thomas.
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Glad you got sorted, I'm sure that pack will do you well. My friend bought one for a 3 month trip round Asia, including 2 weeks trekking in Nepal, he had only good things to say about it.
Sounds like a good buy - feedback seems to be good on it. At 1.8kg, its not a bad weight.
Excellent advice from Podcast Bob (huge pack = heavy pack = hacked off DoE), and petrochemicals is right - a decent 'alternative' list for DoE would be very useful, and one I'm sure everyone on OM would argue about! The problem with DoE is that you dont want to spend too much money, and since you can have it cheap, have it light, and have it durable (but normally get two out of the three) - the light tends to get lost, or you end up with something which falls apart in five minutes.
I was going to suggest the POD cragsacks on offer at Millets, but they'd run out of the 50L (were £57). Personally, when I look at the DoE kitlist, I think of how much Craghoppers must be making, and how many back problems will need to be cured.
Excellent advice from Podcast Bob (huge pack = heavy pack = hacked off DoE), and petrochemicals is right - a decent 'alternative' list for DoE would be very useful, and one I'm sure everyone on OM would argue about! The problem with DoE is that you dont want to spend too much money, and since you can have it cheap, have it light, and have it durable (but normally get two out of the three) - the light tends to get lost, or you end up with something which falls apart in five minutes.
I was going to suggest the POD cragsacks on offer at Millets, but they'd run out of the 50L (were £57). Personally, when I look at the DoE kitlist, I think of how much Craghoppers must be making, and how many back problems will need to be cured.
Sounds like a good buy - feedback seems to be good on it. At 1.8kg, its not a bad weight.
Excellent advice from Podcast Bob (huge pack = heavy pack = hacked off DoE), and petrochemicals is right - a decent 'alternative' list for DoE would be very useful, and one I'm sure everyone on OM would argue about! The problem with DoE is that you dont want to spend too much money, and since you can have it cheap, have it light, and have it durable (but normally get two out of the three) - the light tends to get lost, or you end up with something which falls apart in five minutes.
I was going to suggest the POD cragsacks on offer at Millets, but they'd run out of the 50L (were £57). Personally, when I look at the DoE kitlist, I think of how much Craghoppers must be making, and how many back problems will need to be cured.
Take it back take it back take it back!
As for the cheap versus weight options, there are lots and there allways will be. Wild country zephos (I think but I could be wrong, I mean the copy of the lazer) is lighter than a Vango banshee 200, and it's big enough for two teens. Why buy a Vango night star sleeping bag when the Vango ultralight is lighter for about the same price ? Do you really need a trangia for each two? Four people for one trangia at least. And an Vango sherpa? Good bag but too heavy for even me, at that weight I'm looking at an external frame! A bag that's 20% of pack weight is too heavy when on extended carry. And the crap they take with them, pillows cups cutlery plates. They're young pieces of grissle who can sleep on a wafer. You really need a training camp to accustomise them to what they will actually use, yes you'll need 2 pairs of trousers if going for a fortnight, but do you really need a map and a map case each?
On this one I have to disagree. It is bad practice in a group to rely on a single map between you. If you lose a map in the wind, or you get separated having a map and knowing how to use it is what will differentiate a MRT callout, from a good tale for uni.
These days I tend to recommend the active maps which are weather proof, rather than using a map case. I find map cases to be a right pain in the but... The other option is to print off the route from the getamap service, then laminate them. Tho this can give you issues if you wander too far from your route and find your off your map as well as your route.
Julia
Vango ultralight 350 £60 800g
Osprey exos £125 900g
Half Silminipeak + pole £150 700g
Quater of a trangia 27 £80 250g
2650g for £280pp.
Versus
A Vango nightstar 250 subzero at 2.2kg £45
A Vango sherpa at 2.5kg £80
Half a 2014 Vango banchee 2.4kg £100(heavier I know)
Half a trangia huge 1200g £90
6.5kg for £225pp
If you swap the sleeping bag for a colder model your only looking at an extra 400g. What's the point in recommending equipment if you recommend everything, and all that Vango does.
Yes, but I've seen groups with 8 people with a map case each because everyone needs to know, that's orienteering from a scout camp not traversing the outdoors, they have to do a static camp to start, the kids on the first day of school with everything each of them could ever need ever, I'd swear they have bear mace in their bags, each and every one of them. The eyes, the eyes of pure hatred aaahhh
Osprey exos £125 900g
Half Silminipeak + pole £150 700g
Quater of a trangia 27 £80 250g
2650g for £280pp.
Versus
A Vango nightstar 250 subzero at 2.2kg £45
A Vango sherpa at 2.5kg £80
Half a 2014 Vango banchee 2.4kg £100(heavier I know)
Half a trangia huge 1200g £90
6.5kg for £225pp
If you swap the sleeping bag for a colder model your only looking at an extra 400g. What's the point in recommending equipment if you recommend everything, and all that Vango does.
Yes, but I've seen groups with 8 people with a map case each because everyone needs to know, that's orienteering from a scout camp not traversing the outdoors, they have to do a static camp to start, the kids on the first day of school with everything each of them could ever need ever, I'd swear they have bear mace in their bags, each and every one of them. The eyes, the eyes of pure hatred aaahhh
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Just me thinking out loud. Could the DoE recommendations be affected by their lawyers? As in "we have to recommend the safest (read comprehensive/robust/heavy) list to avoid legal issues or finger pointing if something goes wrong". And remember folks, "pain is just weakness leaving the body".
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