Which Rucksack For DofE?

Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
Boy o boy them kids sure take some kit with them.
http://www.dofe.org/go/kitlist/

I suppose it is blaidd, but they can't even do that right, mossie rep is only optional, not reccomended. They have a personal first aid kit each, I suppose that is like you say dotting all the 'T' and crossing the 'I's. Amonglst the Vango tents reccomended is the apex 200 1.5kg, and the halo 200 at 3.5kg.

Hot red faced sweaty flea bitten bored tired miserable overloaded eyes of loathing.
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
24
Europe
Boy o boy them kids sure take some kit with them.
http://www.dofe.org/go/kitlist/

I suppose it is blaidd, but they can't even do that right, mossie rep is only optional, not reccomended. They have a personal first aid kit each, I suppose that is like you say dotting all the 'T' and crossing the 'I's. Amonglst the Vango tents reccomended is the apex 200 1.5kg, and the halo 200 at 3.5kg.

Personally I think the idea of a personal first aid kit each is a good one, I don't like relying on other peoples kits for my own treatment.

The main area I would cut down on looking at the list is the amount of clothing carried, 2 fleece tops? and 2-3 tshirt?

I'm not a fan of the trangia sets, I don't like aluminium, but that's just personal taste. Tea towel?

Does make me wonder if collectively BCUK could produce a lighter, perhaps cut down DoE kit list...

Julia
 

cranmere

Settler
Mar 7, 2014
992
2
Somerset, England
I gather from my friend's daughter that they recommend Trangia stoves for safety, her lot are not allowed to use any kind of pressure stove nor to use natural fire stoves. Being sensible kids they packed their rucksacks, let the supervisor inspect their kit list, walked down the road, offloaded a whole lot of kit into a friend's car and carried on with quite a lot less weight on their backs.

I think most of us went through the process of learning what is essential and what is just nice to have and to work out what we are prepared to carry as a result.
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
15
48
Harrow, Middlesex
Did you find out the cost of their equipment, pack included? I would be interested in light weight, robust gear to hit an already known cost.

The other thing to consider is how much the group were even involved in purchasing. I suspect they just tapped the bank of mum and dad who went off to a store with the request for DofE kit.

I did what I said today and stopped and chatted to the Bronze DoE group who came past my door earlier. Sadly they were lost and a good 3 miles off route bless 'em.

The weather was pleasantly warm and sunny, and all of them aged 15-16. None of them were taller than 5'6" and all were complaining about weight. So they had to buy everything themselves and school supplied the tents (3 person I think). They all had 60+ bags, which didn't fit, loaded to the hilt and they were virtually on their knees.

"Are you enjoying it?" said I. "No way" they replied. "Based on this experience would you do it again". "Hmmm maybe".

Yes of course youngsters are tougher than they think, and 'can' carry weight if they need to, but my point is that they 'shouldn't' be carrying this weight, especially in this day and age where there are numerous options. Not just at the expensive end of the arena as there's plenty of serviceable stuff in the own brand shops too.

However I do know from our own daughters doing it (one had nothing but rain, the other had blistering heat over the Brecons) they can't be told and have to learn the hard way usually doing Bronze, that they have to be responsible for making their own decisions about what they take and why. Certainly when ours did Silver and Gold they all of a sudden started listening to the 'olds' :).

All the same it is frustrating to see them in such a state, so I'm going to carry a few cards and chat to more as they pass. I think the best way for them to understand the potential benefits in the difference is while they are doing the event, where 'weight' all of a sudden is the only thing on their mind, apart that is, from 'food' and 'where are we?'.
 

twyforge

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2013
90
0
24
Winchester
Did you find out the cost of their equipment, pack included? I would be interested in light weight, robust gear to hit an already known cost.

The other thing to consider is how much the group were even involved in purchasing. I suspect they just tapped the bank of mum and dad who went off to a store with the request for DofE kit.

There's a number of people that I know who have all ridiculously expensive kit that has been solely funded by the 'Bank of Mum and Dad' as you say for DofE, scout camps etc. and the insulting thing is that they care so little about their kit as they know that they don't have to cough up for the replacement if they break or lose it. Another more amusing (over annoying) thing about it is that they know so little about their kit, as it is often all brand new in the box. I think it is an imperative to test and familiarize yourself with kit thoroughly, as you never know what will go wrong.

Also, I quickly did a spreadsheet with the recommended DofE kit, and its quite interesting. You can find it at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-I0hMB66JNxX3lXNllyY2hNdnc/edit?usp=sharing
 
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Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
13,011
1,638
51
Wiltshire
Whats a DoE pocket tool for the uninitiated? (Who plans to stay uninitiated)

Why do we need after sun?

too many clothes.

Boy, their Bank of Daddy must be flush...I dont see many parents being that generous
 

twyforge

Tenderfoot
Feb 23, 2013
90
0
24
Winchester
Whats a DoE pocket tool for the uninitiated? (Who plans to stay uninitiated)

Why do we need after sun?

too many clothes.

Boy, their Bank of Daddy must be flush...I dont see many parents being that generous

The DofE pocket tool is a Victorinox SAK that the DofE had specifically designed and made to be more suitable for DofE expeditions. It's basically a Spartan I think, but with a rounded point on the large blade to stop people stabbing people I guess :lmao:

And no, I doubt many would be, but it was just hypothetical in regards to the items and quantities on the recommended kit list.
 

cranmere

Settler
Mar 7, 2014
992
2
Somerset, England
I gather that the DoE equipment requirements have become much more formalised than they used to be. When I did it back in the early 1970s it was very much up to you what kit you used and certainly no formal kit lists. A lot of my kit was home made or improvised and I made a small tent and used that as my exam piece for an O level needlework exam!
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
Looking at your kit list, take a lantern between two of you that converts to a torch, but do do do take a headtorch, free hands for activities are always good.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
I notice the page says "This list is an illustration of the types of items you may need ..." Is there a list of things you must take?

(My italics)

Inmypinion, It's mainly an illustration of things ie tent, pants, water, and an illustration of what type specifically not to take.

Here's the items list, and they pan ccf mats! At 200g and 10 quid, it caters to the light and cheap point. Bloody fortune, and the bronze and silver don't go past 2 nights out. That's about 200 quid pppn, for a bag weighing 15kg. It's not really a good advert, especially when teens seem so subjugated anyway

Forgot the list silly thing

http://www.dofe.org/go/ekg/
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
I've had a thought about this problem of weight for the past couple of days, and frankly, I suspect its a mixture of 'perfection being the enemy of the good', what people know and can reasonably get hold of, and cost.

From the schools point of view, its going to be Vango. If you've only so much cash to buy tents fo X number of kids to last X number of years, then Vango gives you the biggest bang for your buck. They've got to be reasonably robust and easy to put up (because they are all 15 and have never put up a tent in their life...), and you can get a Vango Banshee for £99. Yes, you could go lighter, but somethings go to give. I'm sure at Eton they have Hilleberg - in fact at Eton they probably have ones like in Harry Potter which fold down to nothing and are made by goblins, but at the average state school, if they can afford it at all, its not going to be that light. It might not be perfect, but its either having 6 tents or two tents, what would you chose?

The reason they have 65L rucksacks is twofold. Firstly, if your borrowing a sack for a festival, trip, etc, what size will proably be available? Its probably a 65L (because its the most popular size), which was bought by someone for DoE, a festival, camping trip with work, travelling twenty years ago, etc. I know the size of the one in my loft - its a 65L, and I bet most of the people on this site have pretty much the same thing.

Why cant you have a smaller rucksack? You can, but think about whats going to go in it. If its a sleeping bag, and you ask to borrow one, its almost certainly going to be cheapy synthetic 2-3 seans bag bought from Argos, Blacks, local surplus place, etc for much the same event as above. Hopefully its going to keep them warm, but its going to be big. Cos its big, you going to need a big bag to carry it in...if you have someone with a lovely down bag, your golden. But would they lend it to you - I know I probably wouldn't.

Imagine you know nothing about hiking equipment, etc. You look at that list, and think -' how much?!' You know your kid isn't going to use the bag that much, so your after decent value for money. You dont want them getting cold (quite right - nothing is more miserable), and you dont want to spend a fortune. The Vango ones are £45. Yes, they are huge and heavy, but try to be the saleman who points out that the lighter but equally warm bag is about £140. Good luck with that. The same goes for the sack - you can point out that an Osprey 46 with a lightweight bag inside will be much easier to carry, but your talking at least 200 notes just for those two items. Again, thats not going to fly for most people.

The list is a guide, and hopefully they'll get good advice from leaders, but again, you have to put down stuff which is reasonably available, at say Blacks, Cotswold and Go Outdoors. It can't be too pricey either, so Vango tends to get featured on the list. Could you save money and weight? Yes. I'd chuck out the survival bag, I'm sure they've already got fleeces, and I'd head down to Lidl, Aldi or TKMaxx for socks, gloves, baselayers, etc. Actually I get my Sigg's from TKMaxx. And Alpkit for headtorches (the Gamma is basically the same as the Lifesystems one, but £10 cheaper, and their new ones are cheaper still), mats and drybags. That might give them a bit of extra cash for a good deal on a sleeping bag.

Although I'm not sure I'd spend out on a DoE 'tool', I can see that having sharp knives and 15 old boys do not mix!

Much as we would like them all to carry less stuff, its hard to do that without spending more (although there is some swapping around to be done), so the best you can hope for is to get the best value they can, to be able to pack down as small as possible. I suspect that the Berghaus Torridon was the best compromise you could have in terms of price to weight, and hopefully better lighter stuff can be purchased to ease the pain of carrying everything!
 

Duggie Bravo

Settler
Jul 27, 2013
532
124
Dewsbury
At my son's school they have Tesco rucksacks for DoE and use Vango tents.
They wanted the PTA to fund some new super light tents at £300 a pop! When I and several other members, also involved in scouts, guides and ATC asked for more details and a demonstration of how easy and robust the tents were for 14/15 and 16 year olds to put up use etc they never came back to us.


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Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
There is always resale if not reuse value in these things, and you yourself can buy second hand. One of the main objections is they recommend all Vango stuff where most of it is wildly unsuitable. Ok as a rucksack, Karrimor Bob cat 1.5kg, passed as acceptable by Bearthrills, who sadly is no longer with us Vango apex 1.5kg and vango superlight 600 sleeping bag 6001.2kg , still come in at 170 quid per person
 

Podcast Bob

Full Member
Petro re your earlier comment, we are trying to get the 'suggested' list for a whole variety of activities sorted on the website, but your point is taken and agreed.

Since my last contribution I've stopped an chatted to 4 different groups last week, girls and boys, and tried to make sense of their gear choices and how they were made. They all came from a school in south Birmingham and had 300 pupils taking part in Bronze, which is excellent to see. I think 50% of them said never again, "I'm not really a walker" but it was hot and the people making that comment looked like they didn't enjoy exercise, shall we say.

The tents (3 Man Vango) and cooking gear (Trangia) were supplied by the school but the majority of the rest of the gear they purchased themselves. In some cases (girls mainly) they had bought their own (2 man) tents, however without fail all their 60-70 lt packs were poorly packed and all without fail, over loaded.

It was hard not to get them to take the packs off and advise them to adjust them properly. Some of the straps had a gap of an inch or two over the shoulder - ouch. One particular group was 50m from my house and I offered them all fresh cold water as they were empty on this blistering day. This suddenly felt awkward as they were all girls of 15/16 and 'who was this weirdo asking all these questions and trying to get them back to his place?' So they refused and headed off with some of my cards in hand. It'll be interesting if they ever visit the site and comment at all.

There has to be a learning curve they must go through so they can learn from mistakes and accept responsibility for their choices and actions, but I think I need to start putting together some kind of talk or demo for these schools to offer some 'options' to them, with an explanation that if they want to get the most from the event all the way through to Gold, then there are various options (and not all expensive ones) to consider to start enjoying the outdoors more consistently from this first experience at 15.
 

jacko1066

Native
May 22, 2011
1,689
0
march, cambs
Iv also seen all this first hand with the explorer scouts doing there bronze and silver DofE's, and iv almost pleaded with our scout leader to let them take lighter stuff or take less stuff, but I'm guessing by sticking to the written list he is covering his own back which I can agree with, bare in mind he enjoys biviing on mountains with a micro tarp so he knows about lightweight.
I agree with comments above, I think it's down to education, all the different areas have DofE coordinators, maybe some of these outdoor retailers should be holding workshops for these people education them in lighter weight options available today? I no that vango supply a lot of gear to the scout shop so I. Guessing there making a good mark up on them.
Bob, maybe there is an opportunity for you to get in with the local scout groups and do a talk on there usual meeting night, maybe take some lightweight gear along for them to look at? I'm 99.99% sure the leaders would like that too!!


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ozzy1977

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
8,558
3
47
Henley
A lot of the kids doing the DofE could do with lessons in how to pack their kit properly, this would help massively with the comfort of their pack
 

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