What needles for sewing heavy canvas and leather?

[mrcharly]

I had to sew a buckle back on a bike saddlebag last night. Started with a 'leather/canvas' needle (triangular end), then moved to a thinner round needle.

Bent both needles. It was really hard work and very difficult to keep it neat. The leather straps aren't punched, there's just the needle holes from the factory sewing. Very difficult to 'locate' the previous holes, even if I put a pin through from the leather side.

It was even hard getting the needle through the canvas (3 layers of cotton duck).

So what needles should I be using? I can't believe that the needles are so rubbish.

 

[Mesquite]

Both materials can be sewn with Saddlers or Harness needles but to help make it easier even with them you ought to get an awl as well.

Two preferably, a sharp one for leather work and a blunter one for the canvas work.

You can also have a look at the needles Toddy posted about here

 

[mrcharly]

Does that work if the canvas is very tightly woven? How do you use the awls, do you push them through the leather from the opposite side to the needle then follow the awl back with the needle?

 

[leon-1]

There are different types of awl. Rhombic which is a bladed awl leaves a small slit in the leather / canvas, round which punches a hole that will close over a period of time as all it does is displace the leather.

A rhombic will penetrate the leather / canvas with ease, the round will be harder to force through. Once you have punched the hole it will remain open for a period of time so there is no necessity to go through with a needle straight afterwards. Punch a few holes and then stitch, punch a few holes and then stitch, so on and so forth.

As to needles as Mesquite said Harness needles are probably the way ahead for you, they are thicker and stronger. The last time I stitched leather to canvas (water buffalo hide to be precise) I used John James Harness needles Size1 with six stitches per inch and I use a round bladed awl (actually a saddlers awl). You may find the leather easier to penetrate if you wet it out first.

As to the use of the awl make a hole and then saddle stitch, you tend to find the hole is more identifiable from the side that you have punched through from in the first place.

 

[mrcharly]

Round awl sounds like it would suit what I need to do.

Confusingly when I google 'saddlers awl' they show rhombic blades.

The saddlebag I'm stitching up needs to be waterproof so round it is. Sounds like I could mount a thick darning needle in a suitable handle and sharpen it to make a round awl.

 

[Seagull]

Well, I sew heavy, heavy canvas quite regularly and initially I used the traditional kit of my seagoing days. It was all abit much and I found the best way to do seams in hard, hard canvas, was just to use a round awl in the same hand as the needle, but you have to be quick about it...dont use trad triangulars and the old flaxline, it gives nothing like the good finish of a saddlers needle together with polyester thread. The trad needles are ok for flax canvas, even using the old flax or hempen threads, but the needle has to be really old style. A good guide to "old style", is to have the makers name, or the size, clearly stamped, which means there will be absolutely no shoulder in the transit from triangular to round. Nor will there be enlargement at the eye. This combo cannot be forced through the cotton hard lay canvas with any sort of fluid repat.
It is both these earlier points that render most modern needles useless at coping with the old style marine thread.
For seaming in hard canvas, the nearest I can get to old style, is a trad needle no heavier than 14 and a half and 1mm flaxen twine. That would be at a six stitches per inch. But, you can get a beautiful seam in the same canvas, with a two needle saddle stitch and speedy awl polyester thick thread, and do eight to the inch. But it has to be even, and that's another story.
rgds
Ceeg

 

[mrcharly]

I can't imagine being able to force two needles through - just one was bending when pushed with the thimble. Maybe it is much easier when using an awl. So you are saying to push awl through from the same side as the needle, withdraw, then insert the needle. Is that correct?

Oh, and stitch pattern; I'm going ahead one hole, back through previous hole, ahead one, etc.

I'm using polyester thread and stitching up one of these:
http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=type&product_id=37

 

[Seagull]

Firstly, mark out. Measure and mark it with a fine pencil, unless you have a wheel markers.
The stitch you're using is ok if you have access to only one side, but you need a load of experience to do a neat job.
The use of the round awl, will not slice through the yarns and leave all the edges rough.
Mark out ,say, two inches of holes and, quickly, do the saddle stitch with the two needles.
You usually awl from the side most near to you, then intro the first needle from furthest away from you. All of which, means that you put the second needle through the same hole whilst the hole is in full view, which means you can slot it in the same 1300 position each and every stitch. 'Looks bonny.
Ceeg

If you can find one, there used to be a short , but historically interesting booklet , by Des Pawson, on marine needles. You would be amazed.

 

[mrcharly]

Cheers - I'll make or buy and awl and give that a go.