What knife and carry for an ambush predator?

[3bears]

You spend time in the forest. This forest has ambush predators in it.

Though the general probability of an encounter is low the frequency of your presence means the probability increases over time

You have tools for bush living like axes, folders and machetes but the reality is that you can't go around with a blade or bear spray in your hand all the time.

What blade would you carry (and where) in case you were jumped without warning and ended up wrestling a big, powerful and quick animal with sharp teeth and claws?

Why this particular blade?

might be my inexperience showing here... but how about a decent cooks knife?

the more you think about it the more it makes sense (well to me) they typically have a long, thin blade- deep penetration (gets between ribs/bones), they are usually a lot lighter than most of the bushcraft/survival knives I've see, so you could be very stabby very fast if you had to be ( if I had a lion hanging off my back I'd want to be able to try and get them off el rapido!) and it has one design in mind- its about cutting flesh, not ropes, or doubling as a fire steel striker, its there to cut meat easily... to me I think that as a BC knife is more a tool and therefore isn't suited as well (don't get me wrong if I was up a tree being chased by a bear, I'd have my Mora ready to feel it if it got that high) it just seems that a lowly cooks knife might be a bit better for this, the only let down I can think of is the handle, but then again you get a lot of 'ergo-grip' ones now...

just my thoughts, feel free to correct the new guy! ( always better to learn!)

 

[BOD]

I dunno 3bears.

From your predator's perspective what least appeals to you being stuck with?

 

[dwardo]

G'day BOD



Don't forget about our drop bears



Kind regards
Mick

Brilliant! I dont alf miss bundy rum in a can....

 

[johnboy]

If Plan A is to fight off an 'ambush predator' with a knife.

You need to come up with Plan B

 

[Chinkapin]

BOD; to answer your question as succinctly as possible: A spear would be your best bet. Not to throw, but to jab with. ColdSteel makes a large knife that has an open hollow an threaded handle that is designed to be used as a knife or spear tip. Check out YouTube. If you can't/won't carry a spear, then I think your best bet would be a CRKT, Hissatsu. The Hissatsu is 350 mm overall length with a 80 mm blade. the blade is a stout 5 mm thick. This knife has one of the sharpest points i have ever seen on a knife. It was designed for combat by a military man. Slashing is pointless. If you could last long enough to slash an animal many multiple times, he will eventually die -- most likely, after he has killed you. Your only chance would be deep stab wounds that would hit the vital organs. You need a long blade, and a sharply pointed blade. You also need a thick blade that will not snap in two on you. This knife has one of the "grippiest" handles that I have ever held. This is a relatively expensive knife but not outrageous like some. Beware of cheap Chinese counterfeits.

Comes with an extremely useful Kydex sheath that can be mounted in a wide variety of ways.

 

[maddave]

Pepper spray or CS spray would work, but check the legalities. In the UK for example CS spray is a class 3 firearm I believe and like most things in the UK ...It's illegal

 

[timf2009]

Actually I think you're doing it wrong. What you need is a courgette. These are wonderful self defence vegetables and you don't need any special permission to carry one (yet at least)

See here for details of courgette combat: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11401167

 

[Ph34r]

Eat the most allergy reactive foods... And smeel really bad, hopefully mr bear wont attack you then .

Option 2:

Get a fierce cat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57VbE0J9niw

 

[swagman]

A knife would be no good at all against a large cat you even mention elephants all a knife will do is give you
a fals sence of security . I would learn more about the animals you want to see or maybe get a local guide.

 

[Aussiepom]

Hi Bod.

I'll side step the debate about how effective your chosen method of defence is and just make a suggestion on the equipment: You're probably aware that here in Oz pig hunting with dogs and knives is a popular pastime. Next time you're here, pop into your local outdoor/camping/gunshop and take a look at the 'pig hunting' knives. Despatching animals is their sole intended purpose, so they'll probably be as good a format as you're likely to get. If you can't get here for some time, look at the pig knives on Dewey knives' website. They'll give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

As for carry, try an horizontal carry, at the front, off of your belt as per the Saxons/Vikings with their seaxes. It allows for a quick deployment and shouldn't be too difficult to rig up or modify an existing sheath yourself.

 

[3bears]

Hi Bod.

I'll side step the debate about how effective your chosen method of defence is and just make a suggestion on the equipment: You're probably aware that here in Oz pig hunting with dogs and knives is a popular pastime. Next time you're here, pop into your local outdoor/camping/gunshop and take a look at the 'pig hunting' knives. Despatching animals is their sole intended purpose, so they'll probably be as good a format as you're likely to get. If you can't get here for some time, look at the pig knives on Dewey knives' website. They'll give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

As for carry, try an horizontal carry, at the front, off of your belt as per the Saxons/Vikings with their seaxes. It allows for a quick deployment and shouldn't be too difficult to rig up or modify an existing sheath yourself.

flippin heck, just done a quick bit of googling on Aus' pig hunting- you guys are mental lol! do many people get hurt doing that?

 

[Tye Possum]

Ok I'm not an expert by any means, never been in a fight with a tiger or anything like that but here are my thoughts on the subject.

If we're talking big cats hunting you, they'll probably be on your back chewing on your neck before you even know they're there, that's how they hunt (well I'm thinking cougars but all cats are stealthy about their hunting). A spear probably wouldn't be very good at that point, I would think a knife would be good for that kind of close combat, well I'd want a pistol but a knife is better than nothing.

Animals can't afford to get seriously injured so would it really hang around with you stabbing away? It might if it's hungry enough but it also might run off to find easier pray. Spraying it with pepper spray would make it feel very vulnerable and I'd imagine that would make it lash out aggressively so that might be a good idea for an animal that hasn't attacked you yet but I wouldn't want a blinded tiger on top of me.

Basically if it's already on top of you you're kinda screwed but at least a big knife has the ability to kill the animal, and however unlikely it is for you to come out on top I sure wouldn't want to just lay down and die.

If you're talking elephants though well... It better be a bloody big knife!

 

[Laurentius]

I have to confess total ignorance here, never having been faced with a predator that was not either human or a domestic dog. (I think the human kind are probably the most unpredictable and dangerous)

But I would wonder mechanics and all whether it has to be a knife, why not just a big stick? It can poke, it can strike, it can break bones and crack skulls. A big stick with a spike on the end is probably even better. Ok it's not going to do much against something really big and thick skinned like a Hippo or an Elephant but what will? I don't reckon Bears are necessarily that much faster than a human to avoid it, though Lions, thinking about it, i'd rather not

 

[Chinkapin]

This just in from the "It can (and has) been done category":

Williams Lake, British Columbia; a man armed with a 31/2 inch knife, killed a black bear that stood 5 foot , 7 inches tall and weighed 200 lbs. He stabbed the bear 3 times in the chest and once in the neck.

Aug. 17, 2007, Chris McLelland, 32, of Grand Prairie, Alberta, Canada killed a grizzly with a hunting knife. 1 stab to the back that severed an artery, and 2 stabs to the neck. The bear broke off the attack, left and was later found dead.

Aug. 1, 2002, 61 year old David Parker of Port Alice, Canada, killed an attacking cougar by stabbing then slitting the cougars throat. (the knife was pictured and appeared to be about a 2 1/2 inch Buck pocket knife.)

Aug. 10, 1994, 50 year old Troy Wilson stabbed a rabid mt. lion to death with a 12 inch kitchen knife.

Aug. 1903, Harry Wolhunter, Near the Sabi Game Reserve, killed a lion that had him by the shoulder and was dragging him. While being dragged he remembered that he had a knife, was able to get it out of the sheath, and being a hunter he knew exactly where the lion's heart was located, and he stabbed it twice in the heart and once in the throat. The knife was a 6 1/4 blade made by T. Williams of Smithfield, London, and was described as a "butcher's sticking knife."

Daniel M'Mburugu, 70, of Kenya, killed an attacking leopard by ripping out the leopard's tongue. A strange aspect of this story is that Daniel, who was armed with a machete, said later, that he heard God say to him to drop the machete and to fight the leopard with his bare hands -- which he did.

After reading these reports, several things came to me:

1. Don't go outdoors during the month of August.

2. Don't mess with Canadians with knives.

3. Don't mess with Old Guys.

4. Hope springs eternal. If you are alive and got knife, you have a chance. Albeit, damn slim.

 

[Alfredo]

This just in from the "It can (and has) been done category":

Williams Lake, British Columbia; a man armed with a 31/2 inch knife, killed a black bear that stood 5 foot , 7 inches tall and weighed 200 lbs. He stabbed the bear 3 times in the chest and once in the neck.

Aug. 17, 2007, Chris McLelland, 32, of Grand Prairie, Alberta, Canada killed a grizzly with a hunting knife. 1 stab to the back that severed an artery, and 2 stabs to the neck. The bear broke off the attack, left and was later found dead.

Aug. 1, 2002, 61 year old David Parker of Port Alice, Canada, killed an attacking cougar by stabbing then slitting the cougars throat. (the knife was pictured and appeared to be about a 2 1/2 inch Buck pocket knife.)

Aug. 10, 1994, 50 year old Troy Wilson stabbed a rabid mt. lion to death with a 12 inch kitchen knife.

Aug. 1903, Harry Wolhunter, Near the Sabi Game Reserve, killed a lion that had him by the shoulder and was dragging him. While being dragged he remembered that he had a knife, was able to get it out of the sheath, and being a hunter he knew exactly where the lion's heart was located, and he stabbed it twice in the heart and once in the throat. The knife was a 6 1/4 blade made by T. Williams of Smithfield, London, and was described as a "butcher's sticking knife."

Daniel M'Mburugu, 70, of Kenya, killed an attacking leopard by ripping out the leopard's tongue. A strange aspect of this story is that Daniel, who was armed with a machete, said later, that he heard God say to him to drop the machete and to fight the leopard with his bare hands -- which he did.

After reading these reports, several things came to me:

1. Don't go outdoors during the month of August.

2. Don't mess with Canadians with knives.

3. Don't mess with Old Guys.

4. Hope springs eternal. If you are alive and got knife, you have a chance. Albeit, damn slim.

Well said! Alfredo

 

[Aussiepom]

Hi 3bears,

I don't know of anyone myself who's been seriously injured, but I do know people who've been tree'd. I guess there must be people out there who have been hurt.

The ones who do the real work are the dogs and, unfortunately, I've often heard of them sustaining injuries, sometimes fatal.

 

[lannyman8]

it takes a human 3 min's to die from loss of blood, if you lose a limb say, i know that a wild cat is about the same size, probably a little bit bigger, based on this it has around 2 min's to kill you even if you have given a very bad blow to the throat. what im saying is your done for if it an older more depserate animal hungry and can taste ur blood. however if it was me i would go for a commando dagger on a cross draw set on my hip so it could be reached with both hands if needed. why would i use this, simple, its made to kill and does a good job on humans, and would have great effect on a big cat if hit in the right place. i would go for the high ribs and try to hit the heart if possible or the throat and get the blood flowing, it might make the animal change its mind or not.

if it where me though id go out fighting, if its a 2" blade or 12" cooks knife if you can use it then do.

it would also be worth adding some hem con, pressure bandage and cat 1 tourniquet to your belt just in case the worst happens.

pm me and i can post some to you for the cost of postage.

 

[Mojoracinguk]

I have no experiance of this although this is a discussion so For the purposes of this thread I agree with the dagger/bayonet option, with these it’s just a case of ‘pointy end first’ wich if you’re pinned face down is nice and simple opposed to a fancy edged tool (I can see it now, me face in the dust, eyes wide shut thinking ‘have I got the blade edge against him or me?&#8217…so dagger it is.

On a more pro active note, and seeing as most folk have the concept of being ambushed (OP) from behind, could you not rig up a vest or rucksack top with one or more Rape alarms &/or chemical sprays positioned near your shoulder, that all initiate with a tug on a cord? (easier to deploy)
I think it would be good as trying to swing even a simple dagger into something stood on my back (am I correct in thinking a big cat would stand rather than lay on top of my back until I’m drifting away well and truly subdued?) is nigh on impossible (my shoulders just don’t bend that way…and the small amount they do is with very little power compared to the movement I have when in front of me.)
The thought of the alarms/sprays being high up on shoulders or rucksack tops would position them right next to the ears of the predator (yes it would hurt you too….but I think that would be the least of you troubles…plus if it failed you’d be well seasoned from all the pepper spray )
Mojo

 

[forrestdweller]

Not Australia for sure. Maybe in crocodile country. Otherwise the only land predator I can think of is the dingo. Not so for Sunderland

I am no Rambo nor am I paranoid about the jungle as I have walked it for years first as a hiker then as a bushcrafter.

It occurred to me that there is a slim possibility that I will have a confrontation with an animal. Most likely it will be elephants, which are numerous here and who are very stressed by the changes visited upon them by "development". People I know have been charged by angry elephants. I have pepper spray for that.

Even less likely are tigers and leopards. There is pepper spray. I will carry a staff over my right shoulder and maybe for fun a halloween mask on the back of my head :yikes:

After watching one of those "I Survived" programmes I wondered what the last ditch solution might be once you have been surprised and are in the jaws. Playing dead might work with a mother and cub or a well fed, but otherwise angry, zoo tiger but not with a hungry wild tiger.

That's why I asked the question. And if I can't deter the tiger with a blade then I guess I'd consider putting an end to myself rather than do a Timothy Treadwell.

the halloween mask on the back of the head might be not such a bad idea at all: i heard several times(and saw pictures of it!), including from a guy who spent some time in india(inclusive hiking trips on the andaman islands) that people in some areas in india, where there's a risk of tiger attack, wear masks on the back of their head when going into the forest as tigers seem to attack their victims from behind rather then from front. as already said: if firearms are out of option- i'd carry a spear/lance for stabbing +a pigsticker as a backup

 

[Chinkapin]

One thing that is very important and has not yet been mentioned (or if it has, i missed it) that most, if not all, wild animals live right on the "edge." If anything, goes wrong with them physically, they are done for. If they get lame, they wont be able to run to catch game; blinded, they are finished hunting, and therefore are dead; too weak to hunt, they die, etc. Consequently, most animals do not want to get into a "fight" and risk injury. They want a quick, simple, risk free kill. The minute you begin to resist, and particularly, inflict damage on the animal, there is a good chance that that animal will break off the fight and leave. Many of the cougar (mountain lion) attacks on people here in the U.S. have ended with the cougar deciding that he is perhaps outmatch and leaving. (Sometimes, slowly and reluctantly, but nevertheless leaving.)