Voluntarily handing in a large blade to the UK police

[Broch]

‘If mine is bigger, I’m going to win’: Getting zombie knives off the streets https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kjvnd1728o

Noteworthy is the bit near the end where it shows mention of such big knives in crime reports has doubled since 2019.

And, for the first time that I have seen, a statement that says that kitchen knives are the most common weapon!

"Of these, 14 involved machetes, seven involved zombie knives and three involved swords. Kitchen knives were the most common type of sharp instrument used to kill. They were used in 101 homicides." (out of 244)

 

[Pattree]

I saw that BBC article
How does one get hold of Faron Paul to hand over your knife?

 

[DB-71]

And, for the first time that I have seen, a statement that says that kitchen knives are the most common weapon!

"Of these, 14 involved machetes, seven involved zombie knives and three involved swords. Kitchen knives were the most common type of sharp instrument used to kill. They were used in 101 homicides." (out of 244)

So with those figures <6% machetes, <3% zombie knives, 1% swords, 41% kitchen knives with the other 51% made up of screwdrivers, axes etc I suppose, just shows what a pointless smoke and mirrors exercise this is, but as I've already said by all means get rid but it wont make an ounce of difference

 

[Paul_B]

Saw a photoshoot of an amnesty box on TV a few days ago and in the camera pan across the table of knives I spotted what to me looked like a silverline machete that my old company and the one before it bought from Screwfix for about £7 each. They were 450mm / 18" long and very flimsy. If you shook it side to side the knife blade bent surprisingly a lot.

Those manufacturing companies used them for cutting through things as part of production. They would start off at 450mm/18" long but finish at about 150mm long and a very thin stilletto type of blade probably sharpened on the top and bottom of the blade to make it work for the job it was then being used for. It was a legitimate use and I pretty much bet that most of you guys on here have what they produced using those knives / machete.

They used kitchen knives for a while but they were more expensive and lasted a lot less time.

BTW when they ran out of them a few devious workers made their own knives up from sections of blunt bandsaw blades about an inch wide that they cut to a certain length. They would grind thr remains of the teeth off a handle length then wrapped that up with anything to form a handle. That could be as simple as 2" wide cellotape!! Then they sharpend the teeth side to form a straitght sharp edge good enough for the job.

They often used other things to make knives up too. It was amazing to see how ingenious that lot were at making makeshift knives. It makes me think that if everything sharp got banned the youths of today will just catch on to this level of creativity to make their own knives up. What will they do then? Perhaps look to the causes behind knife crime and take a holistic response?

 

[Herman30]

Perhaps look to the causes behind knife crime and take a holistic response?

Problem with that is it takes years and cost vast sums of money. Politicions want results now and something they can use at next election.

 

[Broch]

Problem with that is it takes years and cost vast sums of money. Politicions want results now and something they can use at next election.

So do the public - they need to see action.

 

[DB-71]

The problem you have, and I'm speaking from experience, in a certain part of the town where I grew up, lads carried knives as a matter of course, because as they saw it, if they got involved in something in that area then a £1 to a pinch of poo the other lads will have knives on them, a lot of the time this would end up them cancelling each other out, sometimes unfortunately it wouldn't, but if someone happened to be caught out who wasn't tooled up, more often than not they were getting stabbed it's as simple as that, the other reason is a knife is a great leveller, so it didn't matter how handy you where with your fists, or what your reputation was, certain types will just stab you and not bat an eye and jail was a badge of honor, no fear of it whatsoever. Literally 5 minutes away in the centre of the town using knives or dusters or other weapons was severely frowned upon and considered a sh*thouse trick, now that was in the 80s, 90s, 00s etc, the only thing that changed nowadays is that mentality now applies throughout the whole town, loads carrying all kinds, zero respect for elders anymore, feral kids everywhere, smackheads and beggars everywhere, drugs are absolutely rife, soft policing, add to that lots of other cultures who are now here and dealing with all their riff raff, now if you magnify that down south or the big city's its frightening to even think of, I dont know what the answer is but its not getting rid of a few silly looking knives

 

[Pattree]

……….. if they got involved in something in that area then a £1 to a pinch of poo the other lads will have knives on them, a lot of the time this would end up them cancelling each other out……..

At the level of national armament this was called the M.A.D policy. Mutually Assured Destruction. At gang territory level it becomes the never ending vendetta.

Mad it certainly is but it isn’t the tool that’s ……..

 

[Paul_B]

Problem with that is it takes years and cost vast sums of money. Politicions want results now and something they can use at next election.

WIll this give results? Really give results? No machetes or zombie knives or large bowies then it is straight back to the large kitchen knife like 47% of the knife deaths had as the tool chosen. If you don't take away the want to carry a knife you won't seriously affect the knife crimes.

 

[Paul_B]

As an 18 year old a friend from a rough area of Salford got robbed on the way back to uni. He was held up buy a local with a knife and ended up getting beaten up a bit but luckily not stabbed. Come to think of it, I don't think they were even robbing him but it was a case of beating up a student. He was a shortarse and seen as an easy target.

Back then I was an easy touch but I was also 196cm tall so never got stopped (did get an attempt in my final year but I was home hiding in the locked bathroom shaking before they got me).

Anyway my mate went back home the next weekend and came back with a sheath knife that he carried from then on. Until someone told him to leave it at home or pee off.

A good few years back a young lad, very intelligent but from a hard neighnourhood, used to carry. He used to have knife fights with his mates to get better i guess or for fun. He got a fountain from his finger once but he told me about it. It was ok he just got his lighter out to stop it and carried on fighting. He did tell me once that he expected to be dead before 40. Either stabbed, shot or someone went about his head with a bar or bit of wood. He was ok with that and admitted that he was an idiot but wouldn't change. Not a gang member though.

I worked with people from totally different backgrounds to me, real rough areas indeed and ppl who could look after themselves because they had to. However the older guys used to moan about how things had changed. It used to be that two guys had an issue with each other and they would go at it. Usually fists but could be other things (dusters and knives). However it was always left to the two with the dispute and once finished it was truly finished. The older guys moaned about now if anyone had an issue with you it was their whole gang that got involved. No longer one on one but 4 or more on one. you stood no chance unless with your mates.

I have no idea of that but decades ago I did hear that things at work got sorted out back with one guy looking the worse for it but that was it and everyone got on. An old guy I got on with told me loads of stories (some corroborated by my later boss who came up in that company from the shopfloor before setting up himself). The old days it could be knives too but there was a kind of etiquette to it all apparently in my old company and town.

Sorry for the digression. I just thought about how things change. Violence has always been around but it sounds like things have changed in how it goes about. Taking a few kinds of tools away won't change that and they will find other tools to carry.

 

[Chris]

Sharpness is a property of a material rather than an item in and of itself (which differentiates knives from guns), which means you just cannot stop people who want to use sharp objects for violent means from having access to them.

For as long as it's possible to sharpen things (ie until the end of time), stabbings will be a problem amongst those who stab people and want to use weapons against others.

It's like trying to ban different types of liquids to prevent drownings. Just not possible.

 

[Pattree]

Sorry for the digression. I just thought about how things change. Violence has always been around but it sounds like things have changed in how it goes about. Taking a few kinds of tools away won't change that and they will find other tools to carry.

Indeed. In my youth it was “Cosh boys” in London and Teddy boys in - well everywhere but for me Manchester.
NB only a tiny minority of Teds were violent (except maybe in cinemas)

That was when flick knives were banned.

I wonder if it made any difference that nearly every male and a lot of female older generation were still vigorous, ex military disciplined and commanded respect.

 

[spokenword]

Outcome #2​

Okay then... bottom line, the police will keep the BMF. It cannot be returned to me and I will receive zero compensation. You can stop reading here if the details are too tedious

Remember, my main concern was for this not to fall into the wrong hands, and that I don't have it on my conscience that someone bled out on a UK street because of it.

How it works, and I'm not giving advice or suggesting anyone breaks the law: the recent messages put out are all about the 8" blade rule with saw back etc (look it up). However, this morning at the police station, I was handed a piece of Home Office paper titled (not near my scanner now, but everything on that paper I've type out exactly below):

Excercise 2: Zombie Knife 7" Blade - Answer

* Does it have a plain cutting edge?
YES

* Does it have a sharp pointed end?
YES

Does it have a blade over 8" in length?
NO

Knife does not qualify

However, this knife would qualify under 2016 zombie knife definition and so should be surrendered with no compensation as it is already prohibited.

-----------------------------------------------​

When the second round of knife laws come along, you'll have to use your own common sense so as not to break any UK laws.

Really, I'm in fine mood. I needed clarification and feel better at knowing a mother won't be grieving over her lost son, all because I wanted a few hundred quid. I probably wouldn't make a good arms dealer

 

[hughtrimble]

Outcome #2​

Okay then... bottom line, the police will keep the BMF. It cannot be returned to me and I will receive zero compensation. You can stop reading here if the details are too tedious

Remember, my main concern was for this not to fall into the wrong hands, and that I don't have it on my conscience that someone bled out on a UK street because of it.

How it works, and I'm not giving advice or suggesting anyone breaks the law: the recent messages put out are all about the 8" blade rule with saw back etc (look it up). However, this morning at the police station, I was handed a piece of Home Office paper titled (not near my scanner now, but everything on that paper I've type out exactly below):

Excercise 2: Zombie Knife 7" Blade - Answer

* Does it have a plain cutting edge?
YES

* Does it have a sharp pointed end?
YES

Does it have a blade over 8" in length?
NO

Knife does not qualify

However, this knife would qualify under 2016 zombie knife definition and so should be surrendered with no compensation as it is already prohibited.

-----------------------------------------------​

When the second round of knife laws come along, you'll have to use your own common sense so as not to break any UK laws.

Really, I'm in fine mood. I needed clarification and feel better at knowing a mother won't be grieving over her lost son, all because I wanted a few hundred quid. I probably wouldn't make a good arms dealer

But that's wrong. It does not qualify under the 2016 legislation as it does not meet the third criteria of 'images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence'.

You may as well hand in your Moras or kitchen knives, they're just as dangerous.

 

[DB-71]

Outcome #2​

Okay then... bottom line, the police will keep the BMF. It cannot be returned to me and I will receive zero compensation. You can stop reading here if the details are too tedious

Remember, my main concern was for this not to fall into the wrong hands, and that I don't have it on my conscience that someone bled out on a UK street because of it.

How it works, and I'm not giving advice or suggesting anyone breaks the law: the recent messages put out are all about the 8" blade rule with saw back etc (look it up). However, this morning at the police station, I was handed a piece of Home Office paper titled (not near my scanner now, but everything on that paper I've type out exactly below):

Excercise 2: Zombie Knife 7" Blade - Answer

* Does it have a plain cutting edge?
YES

* Does it have a sharp pointed end?
YES

Does it have a blade over 8" in length?
NO

Knife does not qualify

However, this knife would qualify under 2016 zombie knife definition and so should be surrendered with no compensation as it is already prohibited.

-----------------------------------------------​

When the second round of knife laws come along, you'll have to use your own common sense so as not to break any UK laws.

Really, I'm in fine mood. I needed clarification and feel better at knowing a mother won't be grieving over her lost son, all because I wanted a few hundred quid. I probably wouldn't make a good arms dealer

But that's wrong. It does not qualify under the 2016 legislation as it does not meet the third criteria of 'images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence'.

You may as well hand in your Moras or kitchen knives, they're just as dangerous.

Agreed, this is a 100% p*ss take by the police, they're busy idiots making zero difference in this pointless exercise

 

[Chris]

Outcome #2​

Okay then... bottom line, the police will keep the BMF. It cannot be returned to me and I will receive zero compensation. You can stop reading here if the details are too tedious

Remember, my main concern was for this not to fall into the wrong hands, and that I don't have it on my conscience that someone bled out on a UK street because of it.

How it works, and I'm not giving advice or suggesting anyone breaks the law: the recent messages put out are all about the 8" blade rule with saw back etc (look it up). However, this morning at the police station, I was handed a piece of Home Office paper titled (not near my scanner now, but everything on that paper I've type out exactly below):

Excercise 2: Zombie Knife 7" Blade - Answer

* Does it have a plain cutting edge?
YES

* Does it have a sharp pointed end?
YES

Does it have a blade over 8" in length?
NO

Knife does not qualify

However, this knife would qualify under 2016 zombie knife definition and so should be surrendered with no compensation as it is already prohibited.

-----------------------------------------------​

When the second round of knife laws come along, you'll have to use your own common sense so as not to break any UK laws.

Really, I'm in fine mood. I needed clarification and feel better at knowing a mother won't be grieving over her lost son, all because I wanted a few hundred quid. I probably wouldn't make a good arms dealer

Sorry, how does it qualify under the 2016 definition? Just being less than 8" long, sharp and pointy at one end means that any knife is now illegal...?

 

[spokenword]

Officer said that the saw back made it so.

So desperately wanted to say, "I guess that makes shoulder launched Stingers a complete no no?". Then thought about the cost of replacing my front door.

 

[Chris]

Officer said that the saw back made it so.

So desperately wanted to say, "I guess that makes shoulder launched Stingers a complete no no?". Then thought about the cost of replacing my front door.

That Officer is wrong.

"As of 18 August 2016 it will be an offence to sell, manufacture, rent or import ‘zombie knives’ under section 141 Criminal Justice Act 1988. An offence punishable with up to 4 years imprisonment.


Under section 141(2) Criminal Justice Act 1988 the secretary of state may define any weapon as an offensive weapon for the purposes of this section. A full schedule of which weapons are prohibited under this section can be found here. This list now includes ‘zombie knives’ at paragraph (1)(s) Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988, which defines weapons known as a ‘zombie knife’, ‘zombie killer knife’, ‘zombie slayer knife’ as “a blade with – (i) a cutting edge; (ii) a serrated edge; and (iii) images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence.”

Doesn't have any images or words, so it does not meet the full definition.

It sounds like they're trying to mix and match legislation to cover all the features, which isn't acceptable. It is not banned under 2016 legislation. If it's banned under recent legislation, they need to pay you. If not, they need to give it back as it's a legally owned item and their confiscation is unlawful.

 

[slowworm]

@spokenword I appreciate your feedback and perseverance. I agree with the others in that I can't see how the knife falls into the 2016 ban.

Do you have a scan of the doc (when you have time), I'm tempted to send it to BASC for their view as if there is some form of ban or interpretation of the ban most law abiding people are not aware of then it could have serious consequences for some.

 

[spokenword]

When I return home this afternoon, I'll scan and upload here. There is one more single page doc (not too many words) that seems to be for the guidance of police. Still interesting to me as I want to know what'll happen in the future. Please reserve all your anger for the authorities... I'm just the messenger.