The good thing about studs is, they are easily fitted by the user without much tools afterwards.
Ventile Poncho
- Thread starter littlebiglane
- Start date
So in summary:
Size (covering a bergen adequately) may be an issue and needs to be looked at - it needs to cover legs and rucksack - other options have been suggested in 'posts'
Studs now would be an aftermarket option so loops would be preferred
Drawcord on hood would be nice
A weight guesstimate would also be useful
Any stitchwork to be strong enought to bear the weight of wet cloth, under tension, in high wind.
If we can collect together our final comments on the spec - then Dave can give us a prototype spec. If I could have one final volunteer to test the product - someone who is experienced in using ponchos / tarps and also ventile and can constructively comment / post responses and pictures. Then if we have three volunteers I think a week testing each and posting it onto the next tester then finally back to Dave will be the next step.
Okay so far?
Size (covering a bergen adequately) may be an issue and needs to be looked at - it needs to cover legs and rucksack - other options have been suggested in 'posts'
Studs now would be an aftermarket option so loops would be preferred
Drawcord on hood would be nice
A weight guesstimate would also be useful
Any stitchwork to be strong enought to bear the weight of wet cloth, under tension, in high wind.
If we can collect together our final comments on the spec - then Dave can give us a prototype spec. If I could have one final volunteer to test the product - someone who is experienced in using ponchos / tarps and also ventile and can constructively comment / post responses and pictures. Then if we have three volunteers I think a week testing each and posting it onto the next tester then finally back to Dave will be the next step.
Okay so far?
I don't recall any time that a potential piece of kit has left me divided ( especially for so long ) as to if I thought it was a good or bad idea.
If studs are an easy thing to add I think it it's definitely an advantage to leave them as an aftermarket modifiation as people can uses spacings and fixings to mate with their pre-existing kit, which is not always NATO compatable.
If one of the testers can soak it, wring it out ( as they would in the field after a heavy nights rain ) and then weigh it, that might be a useful thing to know alongside the dry weight. As might be a morning dew dampness weight.
If studs are an easy thing to add I think it it's definitely an advantage to leave them as an aftermarket modifiation as people can uses spacings and fixings to mate with their pre-existing kit, which is not always NATO compatable.
If one of the testers can soak it, wring it out ( as they would in the field after a heavy nights rain ) and then weigh it, that might be a useful thing to know alongside the dry weight. As might be a morning dew dampness weight.
I live near Aboyne and I know Dave at Hilltrek, if I can help in anyway with this project please contact me.
I have a Hilltrek ventile jacket and they are very good and I'm sure you will find the quality is top-notch.
I have a Hilltrek ventile jacket and they are very good and I'm sure you will find the quality is top-notch.
FYI Dave's last email:
Thanks for this.
Interesting comments.
Just for clarification the studs are used for fastening both sides of the
poncho together. A stud consists of a male on on side on the poncho and
female on the other side. These are Hilltrek standard studs as can be seen
on our Glencoe Double ventile jacket.
http://www.hillgear.com/acatalog/Glencoe_Double_Ventile_Jacket.html
The loops are intended to tie the poncho to the ground or to a tree etc.
They replace the rings used by the NATO poncho.
Look forward to the response
Dave
I am now going to ask for a final prototype spec that we can 'sign off' so he can get into production.
Thanks for this.
Interesting comments.
Just for clarification the studs are used for fastening both sides of the
poncho together. A stud consists of a male on on side on the poncho and
female on the other side. These are Hilltrek standard studs as can be seen
on our Glencoe Double ventile jacket.
http://www.hillgear.com/acatalog/Glencoe_Double_Ventile_Jacket.html
The loops are intended to tie the poncho to the ground or to a tree etc.
They replace the rings used by the NATO poncho.
Look forward to the response
Dave
I am now going to ask for a final prototype spec that we can 'sign off' so he can get into production.
This could be very useful. Thanks. Do you have any comments on the Ventile Ponch Spec - I am keen to get it prototyped as soon as possible as we have been hanging around a while.
Thanks - and welcome.
Reading this with interest. I haven't got £100+ to spare at the moment, so I'm not in the running to buy one, but just thought I'd say that the price seems pretty good for the quantity of material used alone - ventile's not cheap.
Also I think the 1500mm width comes about from the cloth coming on a 1.5m wide bolt - any wider would add a seam and more material - increasing the price dramatically I expect. I wouldn't have thought adding length at the back would be too tricky or expensive.
Also I think the 1500mm width comes about from the cloth coming on a 1.5m wide bolt - any wider would add a seam and more material - increasing the price dramatically I expect. I wouldn't have thought adding length at the back would be too tricky or expensive.
Littlebiglane
I must admit at first I thought that a ventile poncho would be a waste of time, but I must admit that if it can replace a basha and jacket it would be worth the quoted price.
I think eyelets are a big NONO.
I wouldn't bother with hood, I don't like them, but if you are going to have them how about a wire peak.
I may well purchase one of these myself.
I am willing to go into hilltrek and talk to dave and also test the pocho for you, I can go in this weekeed.
I must admit at first I thought that a ventile poncho would be a waste of time, but I must admit that if it can replace a basha and jacket it would be worth the quoted price.
I think eyelets are a big NONO.
I wouldn't bother with hood, I don't like them, but if you are going to have them how about a wire peak.
I may well purchase one of these myself.
I am willing to go into hilltrek and talk to dave and also test the pocho for you, I can go in this weekeed.
I'm not in the market for one myself as I don't have the money but having read through this thread this is looking like good value for the money.
Looking forward to a review
Looking forward to a review
I have just got this email from Dave at Hilltrek (see below). But the main question now is the basic dimensions of the prototype. Is it big enough (but not too big) - it is based on NATO dimensions - but having read the threads there are question marks over it not being big enough to cover a rucksack and legs. Maybe we can have informed suggestions as to what the ideal dimensions should be. Then we can immediately move to prototype production.
Anyway - here is Dave's email:
"I apolgise for the time taken to come this far and to answer your question -
yes we are still interested.
I think with Lawrence Clark of Bushcraft Ventures (BushVen) near by we have the ideal
guy to work with us to ensure that it is 'bushcraft' friendly.
I don't think that we are too far away if we focus on a base spec.
Lawrence came in on Saturady to discuss and Bill (Hilltrek Manager) and I
had a discussion today about it.
I make the following points:
1 The measurement which we listed in the spec are taken directly from the
NATO poncho however if you want a larger size of course we can do this but
you need to decide the dimensions. We can make whatever size you want!
2 Studs are very easy for us to implement in fact more easy than loops.
Lawerence suggests that we go with the six loop proposal as outlined in the
spec. Perhaps we can insert a stud to be used to create a sleeve.
3 We do not think that the 'fold up' extension is practical to implement.
4 Drawcord on hood is included.
Otherwise we can go ahead and make a proptotype.
Regards
Dave"
I am 1.72m, this Poncho has a length of 2.15m, the pack shown is a Macpac Kestrel, claimed capacity 35l, mostly empty.
As you can see in the pics, to compensate for a small pack like this, even if it where filled, an additional 50cm of lenght at the back would be more than sufficient.
With a 40+ pack, filled up but not extended above the shoulders, one should get a decent cover of the legs with an extension of maybe 70cm.
I will do the same pics with a bigger pack tomorrow and post them.
As you can see in the pics, to compensate for a small pack like this, even if it where filled, an additional 50cm of lenght at the back would be more than sufficient.
With a 40+ pack, filled up but not extended above the shoulders, one should get a decent cover of the legs with an extension of maybe 70cm.
I will do the same pics with a bigger pack tomorrow and post them.
I am 1.72m, this Poncho has a length of 2.15m, the pack shown is a Macpac Kestrel, claimed capacity 35l, mostly empty.
As you can see in the pics, to compensate for a small pack like this, even if it where filled, an additional 50cm of lenght at the back would be more than sufficient.
With a 40+ pack, filled up but not extended above the shoulders, one should get a decent cover of the legs with an extension of maybe 70cm.
I will do the same pics with a bigger pack tomorrow and post them.
Thanks for that - looking forward to seeing how it fits. I have a 100ltre Vulcan - so quite interested how a large pack fits under it. Cheers.
p.s. your poncho looks similar in dimensions to the Snugpak one.
I dont think that we can make this kind of poncho extendable enough at the back to cover big packs. We would end with completely doubled rear and thats too expensive, heavy and cumbersome.
For anything larger than, say, 50 Liters, the Nylon ones with a zippered extendable compartment are the ticket. Like these:
http://intranet.tatonka.com/infosys/infocgi/artinfoe.dll?2797&0
I came to this concusion after making these pictures:
The poncho is the standard US one and I choose it because most of you are familiar with the design and dimensions. The pack is a medium-sized Bach, maybe filled with 45 Liters as shown.
In the first pic you see the poncho, for comparison, with the press studs closed all the way down.
In the second I offset the press studs. The lowest on the rear connects to the third from the bottom on front. As you can see, it fits nicely over the pack, completely exposing the legs.
Widht is also reduced by adding depht to the bearer with the pack, but its still comfortable to wear. I mention this, because the Ventile poncho would be narrower (155cm compared to 165cm?) and the fabric is not as smooth as the nylon shown. Therefore it wouldnt "slide" as good as Nylon over clothing and pack.
Now imagine a 80+Liter pack being worn. Being much higher and deeper it would "use" up much more of the back lenght of the Poncho. An extension of more than 1m would be necessary. Far too much in every aspect to carry doubled up at the rear. With a pack this big, I would wear a ventile Poncho under the pack, like a jacket, or get one with a Nylon one with an extendable compartment. Our design has its limits here.
Now, if we were to make a short extension of ca 60cm, a pack like the Bach could be worn under the Poncho AND the protection would be still good down to the shins AND we wouldnt add too much weight- and pricewise.
This extendable flap would be folded inside when not in use. Fastening is a bit of a problem. Press studs would be easy and cheap to fit, but then every time you sit down they may have to be rearranged as not to pinch the bottom. Thats my guess.
Therefore, I would go with ties, at least for the one or two in the middle. On the long sides, press studs wouldnt do any harm. But that can be decided with the genral question of using them or not at all.
If there were no extension at all, this would leave only very small packs to carry under the Poncho.
But then the poncho could always be worn as a long jacket. Which I vastly prefer to any GTX who make me feel like a boil-in-the-bag and leave my legs uncovered, too.
Food for thought, I hope!
For anything larger than, say, 50 Liters, the Nylon ones with a zippered extendable compartment are the ticket. Like these:
http://intranet.tatonka.com/infosys/infocgi/artinfoe.dll?2797&0
I came to this concusion after making these pictures:
The poncho is the standard US one and I choose it because most of you are familiar with the design and dimensions. The pack is a medium-sized Bach, maybe filled with 45 Liters as shown.
In the first pic you see the poncho, for comparison, with the press studs closed all the way down.
In the second I offset the press studs. The lowest on the rear connects to the third from the bottom on front. As you can see, it fits nicely over the pack, completely exposing the legs.
Widht is also reduced by adding depht to the bearer with the pack, but its still comfortable to wear. I mention this, because the Ventile poncho would be narrower (155cm compared to 165cm?) and the fabric is not as smooth as the nylon shown. Therefore it wouldnt "slide" as good as Nylon over clothing and pack.
Now imagine a 80+Liter pack being worn. Being much higher and deeper it would "use" up much more of the back lenght of the Poncho. An extension of more than 1m would be necessary. Far too much in every aspect to carry doubled up at the rear. With a pack this big, I would wear a ventile Poncho under the pack, like a jacket, or get one with a Nylon one with an extendable compartment. Our design has its limits here.
Now, if we were to make a short extension of ca 60cm, a pack like the Bach could be worn under the Poncho AND the protection would be still good down to the shins AND we wouldnt add too much weight- and pricewise.
This extendable flap would be folded inside when not in use. Fastening is a bit of a problem. Press studs would be easy and cheap to fit, but then every time you sit down they may have to be rearranged as not to pinch the bottom. Thats my guess.
Therefore, I would go with ties, at least for the one or two in the middle. On the long sides, press studs wouldnt do any harm. But that can be decided with the genral question of using them or not at all.
If there were no extension at all, this would leave only very small packs to carry under the Poncho.
But then the poncho could always be worn as a long jacket. Which I vastly prefer to any GTX who make me feel like a boil-in-the-bag and leave my legs uncovered, too.
Food for thought, I hope!
okay - I can get this resolved I think.
a) Will get BushVen on the case as he is nearest
b) I used my Snugpak Poncho with an 80litre and it was fine - so I'll get dimensions of that.
Oetzi - thanks for this. I think it is an issue that needs cracking.
a) Will get BushVen on the case as he is nearest
b) I used my Snugpak Poncho with an 80litre and it was fine - so I'll get dimensions of that.
Oetzi - thanks for this. I think it is an issue that needs cracking.
Right....decided that its best to crack on and see what Hilltrek come up with - I have asked them to produce the prototype design. It can then be tested by our three happy campers.....
Will keep you posted as I get news.
Will keep you posted as I get news.
just spotted this, does it really have to cover the backpac? most pacs have covers, i know karrior more sell them separate to cover most sizes, and you can buy them for bergens to. Just a thought.
I find it's more comfortable to wear a poncho over a pack than bunching it up under the bergen straps.
Just my preference.
Just my preference.
I think it will be possible to wear this specific Poncho made from highly breathable material over or under any pack . Either having the comfort of a loose fitting garment or being protected against the elements right down below the knees.
scanker just pointed out this thread to me. i dont know the ventile material, but i am in the market for a good poncho. will it be available in DPM?
