Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Hammock Hamster]

Nature is utterly brutal and beautiful in the same breath, I chose to be part of both we are little more than beasts with some will to be noble, life is suffering do I wish to elevate that yes I do so I kill quickly.

This got me thinking about the often used argument between vegan/non vegans of why there is a perceived problem with humans eating animals but not other animals as part of the food chain.

We as humans have evolved over time to be the apex predator in the world.
Not through bigger claws and teeth or more muscle and speed but through intelligence with the cooperation and technology that comes with it.
Unfortunately we have a much larger footprint on any given place than say a lion or a wolf.

In essence we have evolved and created the ability kill and consume anything we please and in the last 100 years we have refined this on a scale never before seen.
City living is now the norm in western culture and with the rise of the supermarket and loss of traditional self sufficient garden farming and hunting practices we are more reliant that ever on industrial food production and supermarkets.

With this reliance comes the economic need to produce reasonably priced food to suit all needs, various economic downturns have pushed this to even greater levels and when the economy improves the food types and prices that have become the norm tend not to change with them.

As a race we generally consume far more than we need because this is the norm, along with our disposable society, and a more worthwhile goal IMO would be to address this.
In reality though how do we think any western society would respond to an enforced reduction in type and quantity of food?

The recent sugar tax was a joke, let’s increase the price of sugary food and drink to reduce how much people are eating.
The reasoning being sugar is bad and you should therefore only eat in moderation if at all.
The “tax” was minimal and simply meant people were paying more for the same quantity.
Likewise with the regular price hikes for tobacco products, my experience is they are generally met with comments like “bl**dy hell these are getting expensive” yet still buying the same amount at the same frequency.

It may be my cynical mind but as both these products are well known to cause health issues and lessen your lifespan would an outright ban, like illegal drugs not be a better answer?
That may be true but how would a nation addicted to these substance respond if they were suddenly denied them, of course we also have to consider the loss to various big businesses and the resulting tax.

Sorry I may have derailed things a little here however am very much enjoying this rather lively debate.


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[Billy-o]

As a concept I don’t see any issue, over here in the UK we often see ads advocating “buy British beef” and the like.
It’s a bit like seeing adds for religious organisations more a way of life than a product and I’m ok with that.

With reference to this and earlier point you made, I think the issue for many vegans is not so much with killing or not killing animals (though certainly that too) but rather how animals are kept whilst they are alive.

Food marketing, like British Beef, is about commodity production, specific commodity producers, and the commodity is produced in the particular and undignified ways we know about. Here, you can't buy wild moose meat or wild geese in the market, at least not legally/transactionally ... (you can share it if you have it). But, if you want some, you can very easily take a gun and go get it. But, you have to drive out, get dressed up, track (successfully), butcher, carry out and store. That way, people are limited pretty much to what they need and use and the animals are left to their own devices

 

[Janne]

People do not realise one hugely negative aspect with diet very high in fruit and veg.
It is the high level of sugar and very low level of fat.
And that by the new trend of ’juicing’ you make the fruit/veg much less healthy, and more damaging to your body.

A question me and our son discussed a few days ago. Does an animal suffer mentally in a modern, industrialized, cramped environment, as it knows no other existense?
It is fed and watered perfectly. Perfect temperature. Most diseases detected and treated quickly. Even the traumatic ( as opposed to slow due to age or disease) death is quicker than in nature.

After WW2, quite a lot of research was done on the children that were brought up in the various concentration/ internment camps ( mainly Germany, US, UK studied) and it showed that they did not suffer or get any permanent mental damage, or more mental issues than the rest of the population.
Despite the fack that they knew what was outside, as the adults told them, told stories and such.

In my house, we do not call the meat ‘protein’ as this is disrespectful. Turns the animal into a clinical foodstuff and product.

 

[Hammock Hamster]

Prople do not realise one hugely negative aspect with diet very high in fruit and veg.
It is the high level of sugar and very low level of fat.
And that by the new trend of ’juicing’ you make the fruit/veg much less healthy, and more damaging to your body.

It’s funny you mention juicing.
I went through a healthy phase a few years back and bought one of those smoothie maker things.
I rarely ate fruit at the time and decided to make a daily smoothie for breakfast (as part of a balanced diet and a small increase in excess) which consisted of an apple, a banana, a pear, a handful of blueberries and some spinach.

First of it tasted lovely which was a surprise (and should have been my first clue) and more importantly I lost zero weight.
It was only later that I discovered the blending of the fruit released a significant amount of the sugar (if I recall in the form of fructose) that is otherwise indigested if the fruit is eaten normally.

I swapped over to having whole fruits and saw an almost immediate effect.

More generally I’m a supporter of fruit but as an alternative to say a chocolate bar, either is fine as part of a balanced diet but on the whole one is healthier than the other.

I think the bigger issue is the modern diet is so laced with sugar, saturated fat, salt etc that we have absolutely no need to add anything as we used to and normal eating provides is with far too much of everything.
The other issue is that people now generally have palate that is used to (and demands) certain flavours - salt, sweet and the fairly new msg.

The fairground/theme park concept shows this in an extreme where food is excessively salty so you want to drink and drinks are excessively sweet so you crave savoury.
They even made a theme park computer game simulator some years ago where this was actively encourage to increase profits - again my cynical mind leans towards accepting that this is a big business mainstay along with advertising designed to train your brain.
Brightly coloured packaging for kids and sweets at the check out where they are forced to wait in line down to ads aimed at adults telling them how they should look, feel etc...

There’s a great channel on YouTube called cracked that has a series called honest ads.
It’s tongue in cheek but does make for some interesting viewing -

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[Janne]

I wish the food producers were forced to seriously reduce (or totally remove) the added sugars.
We got used to high sweetness - we can get used to less sweetness.

I did an experiment a few weeks ago, to make my own ‘alternative Nutella’
Finely ground and crushed hazel nuts, mixed with melted 70% chocolate, grapeseed oil and honey. A few drops of Madagaskar Vanilla essence.

Tasted absolutely not like Nutella. Much, much better.

 

[Billy-o]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...ng-seals-your-tell-all-guide-to-the-seal-hunt

Interesting article, as balanced as any other, I suppose. Among other things it puts the seal cull into a broader context of food production. Fluffs the bit about the Cod, though.

You might look at Allan Sekula's Fish Story project for another take on that.

 

[Janne]

Good article.
I have never tried seal meat, but would love to.
Where I go and fish in Lofoten, in my previously favourite fishing area, a seal pod established itself.
We do not fish there because the risk is to great we would hook a seal.

I do take seal oil capsules ( and Cod liver oil capsules).

The criminal mismanagement and torture of farmed animals has been used as a ‘examples of standard’ by various groups to promote their agenda.

 

[Robson Valley]

It's very easy to support my omnivory with local meats and produce clean of hormones and pesticides.
Couple of local phone calls and we will go for a drive. So far, everything is delivered to my door.
Had I stayed in the city, I wouldn't know where to begin and certainly not by bus.

I'm coming around to the notion that the mechanical structure of a city prevents easy access to food diversity.
Food processing sprung up as not only an economy of scale but a necessity to avoid outright city starvation.
Transportation has allowed humans to live successfully where there is no food.
Surely, that's unique in the entire animal kingdom.

Kudos to the Food Science & Technology kids who have brought us veggie burgers and cheddar-flavored tofu.

 

[Janne]

Read the ingredient list on the cheddar flavoured tofu and you will rnjoy the natural one more.
Wife used to buy vegan cheese ( avoids milk products as has high cholesterol levels) but stopped when I pointed out the list if crap they contain.

 

[santaman2000]

.....In a similar vain swmbo has low level diabetes and is classed as overweight.
The diet required for her diabetes is low in sugar but high in fats, conversely the diet to lose weight is low in fat but high in sugars - it’s been a real challenge finding the right balance of staples and variety to meet both needs and not be living on bland fair.....

I've been to diabetic diet counseling numerous times and still go regularly. A diabetic diet IS a weight loss diet:
-Low carbs
-Low sugars
-Low fat (I'm allowed one serving of fat per day --- which means I get to butter one piece of toast)
-Moderate proteins
-High vegetables (but limited fruit)

Bottom line? If it tastes good, spit it out. Do I cheat? Absolutely; but whenever I do I pay for it with both weight gain and high blood sugar levels.

 

[Janne]

Veggies can be prepared so even normal prople think they taste OK.

Do my version of the Onion soup.

I am a glutton, I even like most veg. Except Broccoli, that I do not touch.
Fish.
You can do nice stuff with Turkey meat.

 

[pteron]

Read the ingredient list on the cheddar flavoured tofu and you will rnjoy the natural one more.
Wife used to buy vegan cheese ( avoids milk products as has high cholesterol levels) but stopped when I pointed out the list if crap they contain.

Absolutely no link between dietry cholesterol intake and blood cholesterol levels. Blood cholesterol is regulated by the liver.

But even more important is that cholesterol is not the culprit it is the response.

 

[Billy-o]

Read the ingredient list on the cheddar flavoured tofu and you will rnjoy the natural one more.
Wife used to buy vegan cheese ( avoids milk products as has high cholesterol levels) but stopped when I pointed out the list if crap they contain.

One might argue that milk isn't much better for containing crap ... mastitis in the general herd leads to a great deal of pus in the milk add to that widespread prophylactic use of antibiotics

 

[Janne]

I do not know how prevalent is antibiotics use in European cows, or what % cows have mastitis. Prophylactic use us banned since years, and they did change the recommendations.
All milk is tested for the occurrence of pus I think?

There is a clear link between the saturated fat content and the patients blood cholesterol level. Cheese is not recommended to eat.

 

[Mowmow]

There's still some debate about how bad for you saturated fat really is.
If you look it up it's pretty interesting.

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[Janne]

You can get all sorts of information on the internet, but we tend to follow the recomendations we get from the medical specialists.

 

[Billy-o]

I do not know how prevalent is antibiotics use in European cows, or what % cows have mastitis. Prophylactic use us banned since years, and they did change the recommendations.
All milk is tested for the occurrence of pus I think?
.

Maybe ... there is a lot of contradictory reporting on this from different sources with different interests. I have said before that doctors and farmers are probably the most dangerous of all organized social groups, so tend to take the many happy reports coming from sources with stated interests in milk marketing with a pinch of salt. However, the many people arguing the opposite case also have their own reasons to shape their own arguments the way they do, cite different evidences. One has to make a judgement oneself.

You might have heard about the fight Donald Trump want to have about US and Canadian dairy products. He calls it monopoly, he calls it protectionist and he's possibly correct. But a lot of it is also to do with differing accepted standards and practices in the two countries. My point is that making blanket statements about the standards in milk production globally can kind of fog the issue. You don't see much US cheese in the UK for instance, but you do see Canadian cheddar, because of the alignment of European and Canadian standards. Candian cheese is of higher quality produced to higher health standards and therefore more expensive (though doesn't taste of much). One popular feeling is that US cheese, being cheaper and made under less stringent regulation will wipe out the 'better' Canadian product.

(The fact that pretty much no one in the whole of North America knows how to make decently palatable cheese is an entirely other matter - one worry about Trump's tariifs is that the standard of living in the States - OK cheese, dried meats, wine etc ... is going to plummet)

 

[Mowmow]

You can get all sorts of information on the internet, but we tend to follow the recomendations we get from the medical specialists.

I originally read it up on the NHS website

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[Janne]

I originally read it up on the NHS website

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I will look into it during the day.
But universally, research show high intake of saturated fat gives high levels of cholesterol.
Acouple of decades of research?

I recall the Finnish research and recommendations to diet change. And the results in the health.

We tend to follow specialistsand our gp as they have a good overview of us personally, they can (hopefully) see the whole picture and treat us accordingly.

 

[pteron]

Continuous decline in mortality from coronary heart disease in Japan despite a continuous and marked rise in total cholesterol: Japanese experience after the Seven Countries Study’International Journal of Epidemiology, 2015, 1614–1624 due: 10.1093/ije/dyv143

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751443
Dietary cholesterol and the risk of cardiovascular disease in patients: a review of the Harvard Egg Study and other data.

Abstract
For many years, both the medical community and the general public have incorrectly associated eggs with high serum cholesterol and being deleterious to health, even though cholesterol is an essential component of cells and organisms. It is now acknowledged that the original studies purporting to show a linear relation between cholesterol intake and coronary heart disease (CHD) may have contained fundamental study design flaws, including conflated cholesterol and saturated fat consumption rates and inaccurately assessed actual dietary intake of fats by study subjects. Newer and more accurate trials, such as that conducted by Frank B. Hu of the Harvard School of Public Health (1999), have shown that consumption of up to seven eggs per week is harmonious with a healthful diet, except in male patients with diabetes for whom an association in higher egg intake and CHD was shown. The degree to which serum cholesterol is increased by dietary cholesterol depends upon whether the individual's cholesterol synthesis is stimulated or down-regulated by such increased intake, and the extent to which each of these phenomena occurs varies from person to person. Several recent studies have shed additional light on the specific interplay between dietary cholesterol and cardiovascular health risk. It is evident that the dynamics of cholesterol homeostasis, and of development of CHD, are extremely complex and multifactorial. In summary, the earlier purported adverse relationship between dietary cholesterol and heart disease risk was likely largely over-exaggerated.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19852882
Dietary cholesterol and coronary artery disease: a systematic review.

Abstract
Coronary heart disease (CHD) remains one of the leading causes of death in the United States and other industrialized nations. A better understanding of modifiable risk factors for CHD is critical in order to effectively prevent this disease. Dietary factors known to influence the risk of CHD include saturated fats, trans-fats, and polyunsaturated fatty acids. Although higher plasma levels of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol are associated with an increased risk of coronary disease and lipid-lowering therapy has been shown to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease, the relation between dietary cholesterol and the risk of CHD is not clearly understood. This article reviews the current evidence on the association between dietary cholesterol and the risk of CHD.

Doctors either follow the stuff they were taught (often out of date) or what the NHS publish. Fortunately they are generally intelligent and capable of reading the publications themselves if pointed to them. None of my doctor friends will take statins, yet they are forced to prescribe them because that is the current guidance.

If you look at the evidence, the 'cholesterol' basis of heart disease has shifted as evidence came in. First is was all cholesterol. Then came LDL/HDL ratio. Now it is particular forms of LDL - to be specific, the density of LDL particles.

Cholesterol is essential to the body, every living cell requires it and many studies show an increase in all cause mortality (especially cancer) as it is deliberately lowered.