Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Janne]

Actually you do. Before you can get cream to make butter the dairy cow has to give birth to a calf that's then usually killed or raised a short time for veal.

Shout that loud and clear so all Vegetarians hear it!
Without us Omnivorians there would be no Vegetarians.

True, killed as veal. The milk cow races are bred for maximum yield of milk and are unsuitable for growing into beef cattle.

Todays City Tribes do not understand these facts. Mental cocoon living.

 

[santaman2000]

Yes for sure, but in that case the US state can easily stop importation of unpasteurized milk cheeses and only allow the pasteurized milk ones.....

Indeed; cheese does make up about 40% of our dairy imports.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9...2010.pdf/RK=2/RS=XIhex5iRavZGrq31le35Tksvw7M-

 

[Janne]

I grew up drinking raw milk on my grandmother's farm. Now i pay premium prices to get it directly from the farmer (the only legal source for raw milk here is such a direct sale) He also has heavy cream and home made yogurt occasionally) I'll risk it along with raw oysters.

I eat oysters, raw fish, squid, fish roe, raw vegetables and fruit, I am fine with that risk, but can not risk getting TB.

 

[Janne]

40%? That is a lot!

The Finns made a veritable killing managing to get a foot into the US market with their Finlandia cheese.
( you guys call it Swiss cheese)

It is superb sliced ( 1/2 inch slices), floured, egged and Panko’ed then gently fried on butter...
Steamed potatoes and Greek style ( minus the mint) Tzatziki....

 

[Billy-o]

Not sure if this funny or not

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/china-rainbow-trout-and-salmon-the-same-thing

 

[Janne]

Soon in our supermarket freezers....
Fake salmon.

 

[Billy-o]

Aye. Coley and pink paint.

 

[Janne]

Have you guys seen and bought those frozen, individually vacuum packed Tuna Steaks?
The vividly pink ones?

If you soak them in water the pink partially comes off, coloures the water pink. Last time we did that, I tasted the water. Totally taste less.
Was it blood, sure it would taste fishy?

I fish tuna, have caught all species living in Atlantic north of the Equator, and none has this weirdly pink flesh.
Maybe a new species, Thunnus Sinesis (Fakus) ?

 

[santaman2000]

40%? That is a lot!

The Finns made a veritable killing managing to get a foot into the US market with their Finlandia cheese.
( you guys call it Swiss cheese)

It is superb sliced ( 1/2 inch slices), floured, egged and Panko’ed then gently fried on butter...
Steamed potatoes and Greek style ( minus the mint) Tzatziki....

That reminds me of an FDA regulation I read a while back about Swiss Cheese (in the US) The holes have a maximum size limit (I can't remember just what that limit is) It has nothing to do with food safety but rather so that the commercial slicers still work efficiently.

 

[Janne]

We have/had those paper pusher regulations in Europe too.....
Maximum bend in Bananas and cucumbers. Size and shape of tomatoes... lots and lots of others.

There should be a regulation governing the minimum IQ of the bureaucrats.
But then the unemployment would skyrocket I guess.....

 

[Prophecy]

Will vegans eat cheese? They seem quite willing to harvest plant parts and even kill off whole fields of plants.

No, vegans don't consume dairy because they view it as a cruel industry. The cow is forcibly impregnated, after a long pregnancy she has her calf stolen from her to be used for veal or killed, and then that calf's milk is taken from her only to be sold to humans who don't need it. The cycle continues until she is no longer viable to have calves and thus produce milk and so she's killed at a fraction of her natural life span for her flesh sold to humans who not only don't need it but has links to cancer.

Yes, vegans have no issue with harvesting plants. They're non sentient beings unlike animals so plants cannot suffer and feel pain, and if you're referring to the animals that are killed in the process of crop harvesting then I'd refer you to the definition of veganism which is to minimise the harm to animals as much as practically possible.

Plus, even if you did believe that plants feel pain then you might go vegan too because less crops are harvested that way.

 

[Prophecy]

But, if we look into the food,
What I hate most is when it is said that Vegan food is ’cruelty free’, as it implies the non Vegan foods are created by using cruel methods and practices.

How are non vegan foods not cruelty free? There's a great documentary called 'Land of Hope and Glory' which contains lots of hidden camera footage inside UK slaughter houses and the like. I couldn't imagine any human being saying animal agriculture isn't cruel after seeing that. Sure, there's plenty of other excuses, but that cannot be one, surely.

 

[Prophecy]

I can see a few rebuttals to veganism being that some processed vegan food isn't healthy either. Yeh that's true, but a whole foods plant based diet is. You don't have to eat processed food to be vegan. Plus it's not cheap.

The ethical vegan will tell you that it boils down to this: there is no need for us to be consuming animal products anymore in this day and age when we have such a wide range of products available. So if we don't need to do it, then we don't partake it in. Going vegan is beneficial to the animals, the environment, and our bodies.

 

[Janne]

The only cruelty that is done is done illegally.
Animal husbandry is highly regulated to be done 'humanely' as much as possible. When people torture animals like that it should result in prosecution.
You can not equal animal torture like that with all husbandry. That is the usual Vegan stand, that ALL husbandry is cruel.

It is not so.

The ethical vegan can tell you a lot of stuff he dreams up or learns through the vegan interest press and publications.
That does not make it true.

Going vegan is detrimental to our bodies, environment.
I wonder what your solution would be (if we all went vegan today) about the many millions of animals, and the millions of people whose job and livelihood is dependent on us eating meat and milk products?
I am sure there must be a plan the Vegan community have designed?
Also the worldwide shipments of food would need to change drastically, many vessels scrapped, many new built.


Nature constructed us to be Omnivorous. Yes, we eat much to much meat. And sadly, meat consumtion is increasing in 'rich' countries.
A small amout of animal protein is very good for us. To much - it is bad for us.

What we should aim for is to eat around 3/4 less animal protein, and increase our intake of the rest.
Pulses, grains, fruit and veg. Preferably grown as close as possible.

Do you know what the biggest nutritional problem is worldwide?

Lack of protein.
What is the easiest way to get affordable protein that is easily absorbed?
Chicken.

 

[slowworm]

The only cruelty that is done is done illegally.

Sorry but that's simply not true. Take battery chickens for example, as a chicken keeper watching my hens free range (scratching about, running, dust bathing, flying etc) I would regard most commercial chicken keeping as cruel. Same with most dairy cattle and pork and so on and I eat meat and dairy.

On the other hand I can't see how importing a fair amount of vegan food from places that have been farmed at the expense of wild animals is that much better. Even fruit and veg grown in this country isn't free from harming animals, animals are controlled (pigeons and rabbits shot for example), animals killed in harvesting etc, etc.

 

[Janne]

Animals (including humans) that are brought up in (for us unthinkable) conditions do not know how anything better.

The battery chicken has never seen anything else that her immediate environment. Does not suffer.
In fact, suffering ( wrong temperature, not enough food, water, sleep, etc) would be negative for its wellbeing and growth.
so bad for the farmer.

 

[Robson Valley]

I don't want "product food." It's all laced with far too many chemicals that my grandmother can't pronounce.
I know what most of them are and I know why they're additives.
Modern humans insist on living where there's no food. Even Food Security is a realistic issue.

Humans are undeniably omnivores. Obligate omnivores in their biochemistry.
I rather enjoy living that way. Except for fruit variety and fish, I can call this place the "20 mile diet."
Hindsight tells me that this lifestyle would have been really difficult to accomplish in the city.

 

[slowworm]

Animals (including humans) that are brought up in (for us unthinkable) conditions do not know how anything better.

They will want to behave naturally, our hens were from a commercial hatch and could have ended up as barn laying hens. We've not taught them to fly, dust bathe, preen etc but they do it, they want to do it Ex-bats will also behave naturally if given a chance so I don't buy the "they don't know better" argument, they will want to behave more naturally even if caged.

 

[Janne]

It has been well researched on humans. No suffering as long as the basic needs are satisfied.
Applies to us 'free' people too.
We 'want' to do certain things, but can not as we are forced into a certain environment.

The thinking is that this is the reason we feel good, de stressed, happy, etc, when we leave our usual life and venture into nature. or just sit in the garden with a beverage, watch and listen to the wildlife, flowers.
So yes, you are correct in that sense. But do Londoners suffer? Do battery chicken suffer?

Our modern life is as far removed from the natural existence as it can be. Compare your life to a life the San or other 'primitive' people still living the 'old way' lives.
I do not remember the exact figure, but people living like the San or Aussie FN only 'work' for what they need on average a couple of hours a day. The rest - relax, play, sing, dance.

I worked 11 hours a day for 6 days a week in UK.
Most of you guys do it too.

To go back to the diet, I think that science today basically advocates a Vegetarian diet with a piece of animal protein added 4 or 5 times a week or something.

 

[slowworm]

It has been well researched on humans. No suffering as long as the basic needs are satisfied.

Then humans can have their basic needs met with a vegan diet.