Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

  • UPDATE - The main upgrade is now finished. The site should now be functioning as normal, I will be making tweaks over the weekend, particularly to look of the site. If you notice something is broken or have any comments please let me know. Many thanks Matt (Lithril)

Nice65

Full Member
Apr 16, 2009
4,425
1,126
55
W.Sussex
Cane is a very common sweet for kids from poorer families. Most patients from Jamaica has chewed, or chew cane.
Weirdly enough - very little decayed teet.
The reason is the fibers have a cleaning action
I was introduced to liquorice root as a child and preferred it to manufactured sweets. I love the stuff, and the natural toothbrush it makes when chewed. I have a jar of it in the kitchen almost always.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,148
1,299
McBride, BC
'. . . . .not very bio-available from vegetable. . . " I see the glaring ignorance of the researchers for the amino acids of proteins.
Of those 20 common amino acids, there are eight which humans cannot make. You must obtain those from the food you eat.
Ile, Leu, Lys, Met, Phe, Thr, Trp and Val. Accept that many food plants are notoriously poor in some of these amino acids.

Case in point: flour corn has soft starch and is the most drought tolerant of all 5 of the corn varieties growing in pre-Columbian times.
Used for tortillas, flour corn was extremely poor in Lys (lysine), leading to metabolic distress. As a triumph of genetics, there was a massive and
deliberate breeding program which corrected the lysine deficiency.

If anything, vegans need to be far more aware of the nutrient content of the foods they eat. Or make corrections with supplements.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Janne

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
I think they probably did, and so does Jack Norris, the dietitian and vegan I sited above.

One significant weakness of the EPIC-Oxford study is that it tracks consumption and makes assumptions about nutrients from that.

"
They need to do a follow up study ( maybe with added subjects, specially Vegans that were not so many) and do evaluations of the levels of minerals and vitamins in the bodies.

Theoretically there might be a difference in uptake between those groups, mainly between vegans vs the rest.

In Sweden one of our traditional foods is a sweet blood sausage ( blodpudding) (Fe) we eat with lingon berry sauce (Vit C) and drink milk ( fats, Vit D) .
The uptake of Iron is not the best unless meat is eaten together with the blood sausage.
We were recommended to add fried bacon to the meal and drink orange juice (+Vit C)

So a combination of foods can increase/decrease the uptake.

It is only a pointer to calculate the nutrition from the food, it is also ( more so) interesting to check the actual levels in the organism.


I think research like this is hugely important, specially when we are bombarded with hundreds of "expert " opinions from vatrious self proclaimed "food gurus" and also when the dietary patterns and customs are canging.

Veganism and vegetarianism is increasing, and they need to be guided to a healthy diet!
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,148
1,299
McBride, BC
They are fond of using the word "guru" as they can't spell "charlatan."
I can and will speak only to the commonly understood biochemistry of living things.

Read A. H. Lehninger: Biochemistry, the most respected text of its kind on earth.
You can catch up pretty quickly.
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,246
33
North Yorkshire, UK
'. . . . .not very bio-available from vegetable. . . " I see the glaring ignorance of the researchers for the amino acids of proteins.
Of those 20 common amino acids, there are eight which humans cannot make. You must obtain those from the food you eat.
Ile, Leu, Lys, Met, Phe, Thr, Trp and Val. Accept that many food plants are notoriously poor in some of these amino acids.
.
Oats, the oft-overlooked 'super' grain, has useful amounts of Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenyline, Threopine, Tryptophan and Valine. 200gm a day is 100% for an adult.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,148
1,299
McBride, BC
No Paleo peoples brought cereal crop agriculture to the Americas. So the value of barley was left behind.
Perhaps even better is the recent popularity and cultivation of quinoa from the Alti Plano of South America.
European cereal crop agriculture didn't get here without the Europeans. 1500's, if that.

What the paleos did do instead was to cultivate and select 5 different varieties of the native, indigenous maize.
These are most productive under different environmental conditions so the cultivation spread across
the continents. Flint corn, flour corn, dent corn, sweet corn and pop corn are all pre-Columbian.
This was done so many millennia ago that wild types, if any, are probably extinct.

Flour corn is the most drought tolerant and was grown in southern regions. With the soft starch,
this was easily milled for tortillas. However, flour corn is very poor in Lysine (historical fact).
So the great genetics breeding efforts (1940's?) succeeded in developing high-lysine flour corn which
eliminated a dietary deficiency.
 

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Oats. In certain parts of Europe ( Central Europe - Bavaria, countries of Austro Hungarian Empire) it was not seen fit for human consumtion.
Horse, pig and poultry food.

I think it became ‘humanized’ with the German healthy food movement around 1900’.

Robson V, you say they had a specific popcorn corn?
Cool.
But quite pointless as tv and movies were not invended yet....;)
 

Mowmow

Forager
Jul 6, 2016
121
44
Nottinghamshire
I couldn't go vegan. I like meat, dairy and leather and wool too much. I'd see replacing animal furs/wools and leather for synthetics a much greater crime against nature and these are materials that have qualities that simply can't be replaced. The quality of life of these animals can always be improved though. I'm sure theres tribes where their main diet consists of milk and cows blood. Doesn't get much more natural and no better way to have respect for the animal than raising and killing it yourself.

In my opinion, as long as you don't hunt for sport or let the animal produce go to waste, then i think you can proceed with a clean conscience. In my opinion you should only eat meat if you would be willing to take the life of an animal, skin it, butcher it, cook it, eat it and make the most use as you can from the rest of what's left.

Just my own opinion, I do not knock others who think differently to me. I think methods such as factory farming is disgusting but at the end of the day there's worse things going on in the world.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

Prophecy

Full Member
Dec 12, 2007
579
30
34
Italy
I couldn't go vegan. I like meat, dairy and leather and wool too much. I'd see replacing animal furs/wools and leather for synthetics a much greater crime against nature and these are materials that have qualities that simply can't be replaced. The quality of life of these animals can always be improved though. I'm sure theres tribes where their main diet consists of milk and cows blood. Doesn't get much more natural and no better way to have respect for the animal than raising and killing it yourself.

In my opinion, as long as you don't hunt for sport or let the animal produce go to waste, then i think you can proceed with a clean conscience. In my opinion you should only eat meat if you would be willing to take the life of an animal, skin it, butcher it, cook it, eat it and make the most use as you can from the rest of what's left.

Just my own opinion, I do not knock others who think differently to me. I think methods such as factory farming is disgusting but at the end of the day there's worse things going on in the world.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Yeh, there's worse things for sure, but billions of animals being killed every year unnecessarily which contributes to the destruction of the environment is pretty bad. I mean just because there's worse things going on doesn't mean it's therefore justified.

Personally I think that even hunting and using all of the animal is unethical as it's unnecessary, unless of course when it is necessary. If we want to respect animals we always have the choice of just leaving them be and not cut their lives short.

:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Billy-o

mousey

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 15, 2010
2,210
252
38
NE Scotland
I came across this one on youtube. I quite like these three, they are quite young but some of their youtubes are interesting.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Prophecy

pteron

Acutorum Opifex
Nov 10, 2003
380
5
55
Wiltshire
pteron.org
I note that Dr Campbell has already been called out for cherry picking his conclusions in the China Study, but here is another dissection of just how his claims are not supportable from the evidence - https://deniseminger.com/2010/08/06/final-china-study-response-html/

Her article on the vegan diet is instructive too https://deniseminger.com/for-vegans/ - for me a diet that has to be so supplemented to make it wholesome is not what my body needs.

I eat a real food diet, slanted towards paleo - I buy organic or near organic meat direct from the farm, organic fruit and veg and try to eat nothing from a box. I avoid gluten, grain and seed oils and added sugar. Until my friend retired from farming, I knew which animal I was eating.

It was a discussion around Toddy's campfire at a moot a few years ago that led me to drop gluten. That and my subsequent investigation into nutrition has transformed my health. I went from catching every bug that hit the office, especially respiratory bugs, with usually a few weeks a year off, to having no time off at all due to ill health in the subsequent 7 years.

This is of course anecdotal evidence, but it is of utmost significance to me. I have no ethical issue with eating animals and in my case my health is demonstrably improved by doing so.

I consider myself a non-obligate carnivore ;)
 

Hammock Hamster

Full Member
Feb 17, 2012
1,061
75
Surbiton, Surrey
Ive just re-read this entire thread from the beginning with great interest.

What I have taken away from it is that -

- most modern western diets are unhealthy (no surprise there)
- vegan diets are generally healthier than the above (again no surprise)
- the above is based more on the fact vegans take a more serious approach to health and dietary needs
- western diets that take the same care are in fact just as healthy (again not surprising)

Essentially the “great debate” is focused on the morality/ethicality of killing animals for food. My personal opinion, which may be unpopular with some is -

I eat meat, I enjoy eating meat, I hunt (as far as is possible in the UK), I enjoy hunting, I take the utmost care not to cause any unnecessary suffering (yes i completely except animals feel pain/distress), I eat what I kill with the exception of pest control (however rabbit, pigeon and squirrel are defined as pests and I eat them where the meat is viable).

On an ethical standpoint I don’t agree with battery farming and other “farming” methods that cause unnecessary suffering, I also however understand that in the modern world it is difficult if not impossible for “most” regular people to truly know where their food has come from - the exception being those fortunate to live within small rural communities where field to table is the norm.
(I accept that this is an unpleasant fact but one that cannot and will not be changed with modern society as it stands today or even if it ever could be - that’s another post in and of itself)

I don’t have issues with animal products in the main such as leather, down etc... (or animal testing for medical purposes) but again in this modern world I’m not naive enough to think these are simply a by product as they once were.
Hypocritically I disagree with fur for fashion which I realise is pretty much the same thing nowadays but that is more part of my personal morality.
Likewise with ivory, trophy hunts, cosmetics testing etc...

Now to what I expect will be the most unpopular part for some -
Fundamentally I believe animals are a resource, I don’t believe in the moral reasons for not killing animals for food (i caveat that by accepting there are practices that cause unnecessary suffering and as above, where possible to do so, try to avoid these), I strongly believe there are many and varied reasons where animals need to be killed for pest control (this is an emotive subject however I do not believe animals come before the protection of humans, livestock, crops or property).
I also agree that we currently eat an inordinate amount of meat, especially processed meat, which is not a healthy option however in modern society the accepted norms and economic factors tend to make this the mainstay.

This is just my own personal opinion and know it won’t be for everyone.
I take no issue with anyone’s personal choice vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore (ok maybe you lot that have double soy, low fat, mocha, frappa lattes)

The one thing that has frustrated me with this thread is that the main advocate of veganism, although making some valid points and respecting his personal views, seems to be on a crusade and comes across as something of a zealot.
Now personally I have always been in the each to his own camp and don’t care if you are male/female, gay/straight/trans, Christian/Muslim/Hindu, black/white/pink/green or blue so long as you are not doing anything to harm me I really couldn’t care and am happy to listen to pretty much anything you may want to say but once I have and if I disagree I have absolutely no time for anyone who tries to force their beliefs on me, not agreeing with you doesn’t make anyone in any way inferior they simply don’t believe in something you do.

Anyway I think this has likely been my longest post/rant ever on here and I should probably quit whilst I’m ahead or else I will end up writing some sort of dissertation.

Thanks to all who have posted as it has been very thought provoking and, as you may have noticed, struck something of a cord.

Hamster


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Prophecy and Janne

Billy-o

Native
Apr 19, 2018
1,117
427
Canada
All over the Toronto subway you now see adverts for veganism .. no particular products, just veganism in general.
 

Hammock Hamster

Full Member
Feb 17, 2012
1,061
75
Surbiton, Surrey
All over the Toronto subway you now see adverts for veganism .. no particular products, just veganism in general.
As a concept I don’t see any issue, over here in the UK we often see ads advocating “buy British beef” and the like.
It’s a bit like seeing adds for religious organisations more a way of life than a product and I’m ok with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: santaman2000
Jul 24, 2017
1,162
443
somerset
Nature is utterly brutal and beautiful in the same breath, I chose to be part of both we are little more than beasts with some will to be noble, life is suffering do I wish to elevate that yes I do so I kill quickly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robson Valley

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Hammock Hamster, your post #373 sums it beautifully for me too.

There is two things I would like to mention about Vegan (mainly) food.
We do not know if Vegan diet does promote health and a longer life. Not enough people have done it for long enough time.

We eat at a Vegan restaurants sometimes, we like the different flavour combinations. Done it for around two years in various countries
But, if we look into the food, some contain a very high level of fat, or sugar, or salt, or a combination.
Dome of the meat replacements, like the increasingly popular green Jackfruit, or some Quorn productd, are in fact super processed, involving very unnatural processing chemicals, flavourings and preservatives.

I like the flavours, but I am not letting anybody tell me that it is healthier than a well composed and prepared Omnivorous diet.

What I hate most is when it is said that Vegan food is ’cruelty free’, as it implies the non Vegan foods are created by using cruel methods and practices.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hammock Hamster

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,148
1,299
McBride, BC
Yup, humans are biological omnivores.
You can see that in the teeth and the intestines.
Our central biochemistry is a real marker.
That versatility is a life saver, even for the vegans.

I foraged locally: last night was liver & onions, even the frying bacon fat.
Added steamed beet and spinach greens with boiled new potatoes with butter and dill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hammock Hamster

Hammock Hamster

Full Member
Feb 17, 2012
1,061
75
Surbiton, Surrey
Hammock Hamster, your post #373 sums it beautifully for me too.

There is two things I would like to mention about Vegan (mainly) food.
We do not know if Vegan diet does promote health and a longer life. Not enough people have done it for long enough time.

We eat at a Vegan restaurants sometimes, we like the different flavour combinations. Done it for around two years in various countries
But, if we look into the food, some contain a very high level of fat, or sugar, or salt, or a combination.
Dome of the meat replacements, like the increasingly popular green Jackfruit, or some Quorn productd, are in fact super processed, involving very unnatural processing chemicals, flavourings and preservatives.

I like the flavours, but I am not letting anybody tell me that it is healthier than a well composed and prepared Omnivorous diet.

What I hate most is when it is said that Vegan food is ’cruelty free’, as it implies the non Vegan foods are created by using cruel methods and practices.
Agreed, I have a lot of time for the general idea of a vegan diet and it doesn’t take a mastermind to understand that veg and leafy greens plus a reduction in processed food, fats and sugars are a good hing for your health but it can be achieved with a balanced diet including meat.
Let’s be honest the vegan movement is primarily about being against the killing of animals (all life is precious blah blah), all the supposed health benefits are, in my mind, simply an aid to this end that is more likely to be well received.

In a similar vain swmbo has low level diabetes and is classed as overweight.
The diet required for her diabetes is low in sugar but high in fats, conversely the diet to lose weight is low in fat but high in sugars - it’s been a real challenge finding the right balance of staples and variety to meet both needs and not be living on bland fair.

I quite like some vegan food but don’t buy into it as a lifestyle choice simply because I don’t see animals in the same way vegans do - what gets me is the preaching by some and the complete lack of acceptance that others have a different point of view.
I think you posted something a few pages back that struck a cord with me along the lines of - I’m not trying to change your mind but am explaining I have a different view, please have the courtesy to do the same.

Having re-read the thread again I can’t find one instance where a meat eater has suggested a non meat eater should eat meat.

Of course most of us would agree deliberate or in built animal cruelty is wrong and where possible we would avoid supporting it but it simply isn’t practical where most of us cannot be sure of our foods source despite what labels may say, neither is a wholesale change to veganism as you and others have pointed out.

A good comparison would be cheap modern clothing made in sweat shops, people know about them and often don’t support when aware but how do you really know where products are coming from and in what conditions.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk