Very, very difficult.
We will know in a couple of decades what a longterm Vegan diet does to the human health.
We will know in a couple of decades what a longterm Vegan diet does to the human health.
Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism
- Thread starter Janne
- Start date
In my experience, clinically, I can see a much, much higher incidence of decay and periodontitis in Vegetarians and vegans, plus an increased incidence of gum and mucosal problems in Vegans due to Iron deficiency.
I even diagnosed Scorbut this year on a vegan, that was following some really weird high protein/low fruit and veg diet.
(never heard about that die beforet, could only find a few references online).
Even Omnivores are starting to show deficiency symptoms. Usually Iron. I blame the fad of eating chicken breast as animal protein only, and not liking leafy veg.
I work the oldfashioned way, as I was trained.
I even diagnosed Scorbut this year on a vegan, that was following some really weird high protein/low fruit and veg diet.
(never heard about that die beforet, could only find a few references online).
Even Omnivores are starting to show deficiency symptoms. Usually Iron. I blame the fad of eating chicken breast as animal protein only, and not liking leafy veg.
I work the oldfashioned way, as I was trained.
That's a very good point Janne are life style is deeply unnatural and the system that supports it, its not just food but every dam thing out there, but as a community I see us here as very self aware of are impact and the ripple effect of are personal existence so in many ways the least kind of people that need educating on how to live in accord with a single group's idea of what is best.
So you wouldn't consider continually forcible impregnating a cow then stealing her baby off her and then killing it or confining it to a tiny area so that it can't move, then killing it when it's still a baby, stealing the milk off her which routinely causes nasty wounds and infections, repeating this process until she's no longer any good for meat and so bolting her in the head, hanging her upside down and slitting her throat until she bleeds out, cruel?
What about killing millions of new-born male chicks every week, by letting them suffocate in a bag or putting them on a conveyor belt where they fall into a grinder, because they're no good for laying eggs which we eat unnecessarily?
How about raising pigs in disgusting conditions where they never see sunlight, lowering them into a gas chamber where they burn from the inside out and scream in agony as we kill them for their flesh at a fraction of their natural lifespan just so we can eat their flesh, unnecessarily?
It goes on and on. Have you watched that documentary I linked above? If you don't see cruelty there you are being disingenuous or else the cognitive dissonance in you has reached crazy heights. I think you're the first person I've ever saying factory farming contains no cruelty.
Now I realise you'll say my use of words above is dramatic and way out of line, but it's the truth and I haven't exaggerated anything. In fact it's probably much worse than that in a lot of factory farms around the UK and elsewhere. Again, there's no need to guess - the standard RSPCA practice is all shown in the video.
Here's the thing though - what does 'humane' mean? It means to show compassion or benevolence. Can you kill something humanely? If it doesn't want to be killed, and if it's unnecessary?
How is going vegan detrimental to our bodies? Our own health service disagrees with you. In fact every major dietetic association in the world states that a well balanced vegan diet allows humans, of all ages, to thrive.
As to the question of what if we all went vegan today what would we do with the animals etc... The world isn't going to go vegan overnight. It's a slow process and we will gradually breed less animals into existence for the meat industry.
We used to be obligate meat-eaters. We don't have to eat meat anymore. We're opportunistic eaters meaning that we are very adaptable. Just because we can do something, has no bearing on its ethics. Surely if we can choose to do something that is better for ourselves, animals and the environment, we should do it?
As far as what the most affordable protein is - the cheapest food sources in the world are beans, legumes, seeds, nuts and grains etc. Meat is a luxury which many people cannot afford in different countries.
What about killing millions of new-born male chicks every week, by letting them suffocate in a bag or putting them on a conveyor belt where they fall into a grinder, because they're no good for laying eggs which we eat unnecessarily?
How about raising pigs in disgusting conditions where they never see sunlight, lowering them into a gas chamber where they burn from the inside out and scream in agony as we kill them for their flesh at a fraction of their natural lifespan just so we can eat their flesh, unnecessarily?
It goes on and on. Have you watched that documentary I linked above? If you don't see cruelty there you are being disingenuous or else the cognitive dissonance in you has reached crazy heights. I think you're the first person I've ever saying factory farming contains no cruelty.
Now I realise you'll say my use of words above is dramatic and way out of line, but it's the truth and I haven't exaggerated anything. In fact it's probably much worse than that in a lot of factory farms around the UK and elsewhere. Again, there's no need to guess - the standard RSPCA practice is all shown in the video.
Here's the thing though - what does 'humane' mean? It means to show compassion or benevolence. Can you kill something humanely? If it doesn't want to be killed, and if it's unnecessary?
How is going vegan detrimental to our bodies? Our own health service disagrees with you. In fact every major dietetic association in the world states that a well balanced vegan diet allows humans, of all ages, to thrive.
As to the question of what if we all went vegan today what would we do with the animals etc... The world isn't going to go vegan overnight. It's a slow process and we will gradually breed less animals into existence for the meat industry.
We used to be obligate meat-eaters. We don't have to eat meat anymore. We're opportunistic eaters meaning that we are very adaptable. Just because we can do something, has no bearing on its ethics. Surely if we can choose to do something that is better for ourselves, animals and the environment, we should do it?
As far as what the most affordable protein is - the cheapest food sources in the world are beans, legumes, seeds, nuts and grains etc. Meat is a luxury which many people cannot afford in different countries.
American Dietetic Association
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
Dietitians of Canada
A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.
The British National Health Service
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
The British Nutrition Foundation
A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.
The Dietitians Association of Australia
Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.
The United States Department of Agriculture
Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.
The National Health and Medical Research Council
Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.
The Mayo Clinic
A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.
The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.
Harvard Medical School
Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.
It does, yeh. But the generally accepted definition of veganism is 'reducing harm and exploitation to animals as much as practically possible'. It's obviously impossible to live in this world without killing small animals and insects when we harvest plants. We need to eat. It takes 16kg of plants to make 1kg of beef, so considerably more of those mice are being killed in a meat-inclusive diet.
Snails - personally I wouldn't use slug pellets, but then I don't have a snail problem so I couldn't tell you what alternatives there are. I'm sure a garden snail is heavenly to eat, but I don't need to!
Snails - personally I wouldn't use slug pellets, but then I don't have a snail problem so I couldn't tell you what alternatives there are. I'm sure a garden snail is heavenly to eat, but I don't need to!
What about the habitat loss due to growing crops such as soya? I agree it doesn't make sense to me to feed soya to animals but there's plenty of soya in vegan food and I do wonder if something like a grass fed hill lamb involves less animals being killed to provide the equivalent protein.
Do you have any issue with people eating road kill?
We grow way more soy to raise animals for meat than we do for human consumption which is just a fraction of that. But remember soy is in so many products these days, not just vegan processed food. The last statistic I looked at was that 70% of the world's soy production goes directly to livestock while 6% is consumed by humans.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding the lamb example? I mean I guess there's not enough grass to feed to all livestock so we have to give them grain and soy and the like.
Well you should know that there isn't really a vegan Bible so to speak, so I suppose people's answers will vary, but personally I wouldn't have any issue with the ethics of eating road kill.
I’d like to pose a question to the vegans out there and it is out of genuine interest rather than just baiting (I fully respect why people would want to lead a vegan lifestyle even if it’s seriously not for me). I’m an arable farmer and in the course of producing a range of cereal crops we have no choice but to have a pest control policy and as a result cull rabbit, pigeon deer etc. My question is as a vegan would you consider eating the meat that inevitably is produced. I’ve asked various vegan friends this question and always get the expected answer that no they wouldn’t but I’ve never had a satisfactory answer as to why it would be better to just dump good meat rather than eat it (to me under those circumstances just saying because I’m against eating meat doesn’t cut it) 
If we minimize out animal protein and fat intake to a level that results in the optimal health of the human body, we do not need to raise as many as we do now.
As we then need to raise far less, we can do it in a nice and sustainable way.
It is the quest for plentiful and ultra cheap animal protein that has led to development of agricultural techniquest that are resulting in (for the animal) unnatural conditions.
we should be also aware of that all domesticated animal species are created by humans. Those will disappear. Cows, horses, chicken, turkeys...
Several fish species.
It would be a different world!
As we then need to raise far less, we can do it in a nice and sustainable way.
It is the quest for plentiful and ultra cheap animal protein that has led to development of agricultural techniquest that are resulting in (for the animal) unnatural conditions.
we should be also aware of that all domesticated animal species are created by humans. Those will disappear. Cows, horses, chicken, turkeys...
Several fish species.
It would be a different world!
Yeh good question I suppose.
I don't know what my answer is actually; I think it would be easy to simple say no, because after not eating animals for so it's easy to just say a straight no to any animal products no matter how they've died. The roadkill question was easier because it was much less complex!
How are they culled? I mean red meat is directly linked to cancer so I could see that being a reasonable answer as to why someone wouldn't want to eat it. But one piece of venison wouldn't have any negative affects, or perhaps a whole deer. Perhaps also having being vegan for so long they just can't face the idea of eating meat anymore.
Perhaps keeping the meat for my dog would be a compromise?
I'm still not sure really; let me mull it over! Any other vegans please chime in!
I don't know what my answer is actually; I think it would be easy to simple say no, because after not eating animals for so it's easy to just say a straight no to any animal products no matter how they've died. The roadkill question was easier because it was much less complex!
How are they culled? I mean red meat is directly linked to cancer so I could see that being a reasonable answer as to why someone wouldn't want to eat it. But one piece of venison wouldn't have any negative affects, or perhaps a whole deer. Perhaps also having being vegan for so long they just can't face the idea of eating meat anymore.
Perhaps keeping the meat for my dog would be a compromise?
I'm still not sure really; let me mull it over! Any other vegans please chime in!
I’d like to pose a question to the vegans out there and it is out of genuine interest rather than just baiting (I fully respect why people would want to lead a vegan lifestyle even if it’s seriously not for me). I’m an arable farmer and in the course of producing a range of cereal crops we have no choice but to have a pest control policy and as a result cull rabbit, pigeon deer etc. My question is as a vegan would you consider eating the meat that inevitably is produced. I’ve asked various vegan friends this question and always get the expected answer that no they wouldn’t but I’ve never had a satisfactory answer as to why it would be better to just dump good meat rather than eat it (to me under those circumstances just saying because I’m against eating meat doesn’t cut it)
Thanks for your honesty, I’m aware it’s not a simple question with a simple answer.
A world without animals being unnecessarily raised in nasty conditions, killed at a fraction of their lifespans benefiting them, us and the environment.
A different world indeed.
A different world indeed.
When wild animals are starving from over population, ectoparasites and disease, best get out there to cull for a sustainable population.
Our licensing numbers are calculated to do exactly that in carefully regulated seasons. Even for the fur trappers.
The landscape is divided into large regions of subdivided Management Units of different habitats.
Hunt for your food, prepare it and put it on the table. It's work. What we are seeing are more and more city people are hunting.
It's quite an involved process to get started. But, they are finally figuring out that game is clean food.
The game populations are managed so that there's no more than a sustained yield of both sexes and all ages.
I wish sometimes that I lived 600 miles south of here. I could live on wild turkey. I'd like to try!
Our licensing numbers are calculated to do exactly that in carefully regulated seasons. Even for the fur trappers.
The landscape is divided into large regions of subdivided Management Units of different habitats.
Hunt for your food, prepare it and put it on the table. It's work. What we are seeing are more and more city people are hunting.
It's quite an involved process to get started. But, they are finally figuring out that game is clean food.
The game populations are managed so that there's no more than a sustained yield of both sexes and all ages.
I wish sometimes that I lived 600 miles south of here. I could live on wild turkey. I'd like to try!
Hasn’t the southern part of India been fuelled by a vegan diet for a thousand years or so?
I believe they are Lacto Vegetarian.
I know quite a few Indian Hindus but none follows their dietary rules to be frank.
I did ask why not and got the answer that it is not a strick rule not to eat meat.
I am not aware of any culture being Vegan.
I know quite a few Indian Hindus but none follows their dietary rules to be frank.
I did ask why not and got the answer that it is not a strick rule not to eat meat.
I am not aware of any culture being Vegan.
Another question might be how healthy are they?
