Ultimate bushcraft sin!!!!

[21st century pict]

I've never burned anything BUT green wood in the fireplace at home. In the South, wood doesn't "season." It rots within a few months. That said we don't burn pine as fuelwood, only as kindling. We've been doing it that way for generations.

Hi santaman
I can certainly understand that in different regions of the world different logic can apply and especially at home in a fire place with a chimney, and in your area what wood works best for you. But up here in the north o Scotland out doors there is plenty dead standing Pine, log pole pine, Birch, Broom, Gorse and Beach, so apart from killing trees unnecessarily its just a waste of energy time and recourses throwing wet and because its green slow burning and very smokey.
Normally the only time we want a smokey fire around here is to drive off the Midges, Clegs and Mozzies.

 

[Satyr]

I cut down six twenty foot healthy trees today (ash and elder) - am I goin to hell?

If bam was closer he cold come and do his thing with the stumps!

If you are doing this as woodland management to increase the size of the trees then yes, yes you are! Obesity in trees is a serious problem that can lead to type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Stop doing this and let them grow skinny naturally before they get too fat to grow upright

 

[santaman2000]

Hi santaman
I can certainly understand that in different regions of the world different logic can apply and especially at home in a fire place with a chimney, and in your area what wood works best for you. But up here in the north o Scotland out doors there is plenty dead standing Pine, log pole pine, Birch, Broom, Gorse and Beach, so apart from killing trees unnecessarily its just a waste of energy time and recourses throwing wet and because its green slow burning and very smokey.
Normally the only time we want a smokey fire around here is to drive off the Midges, Clegs and Mozzies.

Fair enough on most of your points. However one seems to be a bit contradictory to your purpose. At least if i understand correctly.

You mention the selection of woods with regard to the use. Well the reason we don't use pine (indoors in a fireplace) is excatly because of the smoke issue. Pine not only smokes excessively but that smoke causes rapid creosote builup in the chimney which is dangerous.

Outdoors, that smoke imparts an awful flavor to anything that your cooking over it.

As for "standing dead pine" it's generally illegal to take that down as that's the very tree prefered for nesting by many endagered species (the Red Cockaded Woodpecker being one such species here)

As for grenn wood being slow burning, well that's really the advantage. Dry wood burns quickly to ash (here at least where it doesn't really "season" as you would call it) On the other hand the green wood burns slowly and into very, very, very hot coals (embers) which is what you really want for cooking.

All that said, I too normally use wood collected off the ground for day trips or quick overnighters for the very reason you mentioned----it's just so much easier.

 

[Goatboy]

The British public are funny about trees. Coming from a forestry background have seen some wierd ideas from folks. For amenity plantings we had to make the trees "look established" ie no stakes or supports as the neds would trash new looking ones.
Similarly in commercial forestry folks would complain about monoculture and planting up virgin ground. Yet when you came to fell similar mature stands they would moan about loss of habitat and destruction of the countryside
Trees are a long term thing and there is a long crop rotation so tastes change. The Forestry Commission tried to get the % of trees up from less than 5% forest cover after WWII up to around 15%. and during that time what we wanted from the landscape changed. Best way I heard it put is that if you compared a stand of commercial timber to a field of wheat then the farmer would have to deal with legislation change every couple of days for the crop rotation. I mean even the shape of trees folk prefer here is strange, Brits prefer trees without appical dominance IE branched and split from low down, not very condusive to logging compared to our EU chums especially the Germans who prefer tall straight ones.
We "heart of oaks" destroyed our forests to create the greatest navy on the planet and then relied on empire imports to keep us supplied, getting a big shock during the blockades of WWI and especially WWII.
We no longer have a commercial forestry industry in the UK. Trees had their grants taken away, too heavily branched so commercial machines from Nordic countries had to be heavily modified and we cant compeate with the cheap natural growth of Nordic and Canadian companies. The FC are really just park wardens now. Hence why there are so many old out of work axe jockeys like me around.
GB.

 

[British Red]

Great post that Goatboy - quite illuminating. It is strange isn't it that we have no forest industry - and yet firewood is absurdly expensive if you have to buy it - I saw £120 for a cubic metre recently!

I would love to have the land and time to develop a "utility" forest - coppiced firewood, hazel bean poles, willow for basketry. etc. I suppose we simply have too many people and too little land for that

 

[Goatboy]

Great post that Goatboy - quite illuminating. It is strange isn't it that we have no forest industry - and yet firewood is absurdly expensive if you have to buy it - I saw £120 for a cubic metre recently!

I would love to have the land and time to develop a "utility" forest - coppiced firewood, hazel bean poles, willow for basketry. etc. I suppose we simply have too many people and too little land for that

Thanks for the kind words Red, always welcome from someone like yourself.

I was involved in some Biomass projects back in the early 90's supplying willow to a trial power plant. Basically wanted finger sized willow chopped into think it was 3cm chunks which would pretty much grow on a coppiced stand in on a 3 to 4 year rotation in that climate. It pretty much worked brilliantly and on scrub land no use for owt else. But the windmill chaps were starting to make noises and the grants were looking better and it got canned.


Firewood is becoming so expensive your right, yet it's a renewable almost waste resource. Nuts. Like you say if you had some cash to buy up scrub land in close enough proximity to each other you could make a going concern. Plus it could be native species and a wildlife habitat. But the grants folk don't want that sort of mix so the capitol would have to be found elsewhere.


Ah well, back to being a bitter old axe jock

 

[bambodoggy]

Great post that Goatboy - quite illuminating. It is strange isn't it that we have no forest industry - and yet firewood is absurdly expensive if you have to buy it - I saw £120 for a cubic metre recently!

I would love to have the land and time to develop a "utility" forest - coppiced firewood, hazel bean poles, willow for basketry. etc. I suppose we simply have too many people and too little land for that

We don't have a forestry industry due to our warmer wet climate not producing strong enough soft wood for building (with a few notable exceptions - duggie fir as an example) as I'm sure you well know....and of course the cost of land in this country doesn't help.

Would be happy to have buzzed your stumps out but you'd have to have moved out of the sticks first and I can't see that happening lol


Niels, I knew what you meant and agree with you personally.....but try explaining to a vegan or possibly even a vegetarian that the suffering you are causing an animal to eat it is necessary

Cheers,

Bam.

(ps. I've got one of those sausage things...the mrs bought my in Finland a few years ago....it comes out for family camping only lol )

 

[British Red]

Yep I know our softwood is poor - but at £100 a tonne, I'm surprised that no-one is commercially coppicing firewood (as one example).

I guess most wood products are still cheaper from abroad. I know a guy how fenced his 600 acres of mature woodland with commercially purchased fence posts. He couldn't make them for the price of commercial tanalised ones!

10 acres would be good for me...sekf sufficient firewood, stakes, fencing etc. Only going to cost me about a hundred grand for ten acreas of mud!

 

[Imagedude]

Great post that Goatboy - quite illuminating. It is strange isn't it that we have no forest industry - and yet firewood is absurdly expensive if you have to buy it - I saw £120 for a cubic metre recently!

And the view from t'other side of the fence...

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/firewood-forum/56372-price-per-1m-cube-next-year.html

 

[Goatboy]

Oh C~~p, why is it when ever I post a long post it either kills the thread or starts an argument. I think I should go back to being a hermit with no electrickery No-one wants research foresters these days. Heres me with a pain in the diodes all down my left side.

 

[bambodoggy]

Oh C~~p, why is it when ever I post a long post it either kills the thread or starts an argument. I think I should go back to being a hermit with no electrickery No-one wants research foresters these days. Heres me with a pain in the diodes all down my left side.

Lol I don't think you've killed it or started an argument.....maybe just helped drag it off topic a bit

 

[British Red]

I don't think Imagedude was disputing GB - guys on that link are selling at £100 per cubic metre

This one sells a 2 cubic metre crate for £230

http://www.coals2u.co.uk/full-crate-of-kiln-dried-logs-%E2%80%93-2m3

You can get "tonne bags" (about 0.7m cube) round here for about £70 - so about £100 a cube.

That seems a heck of lot to me - its certainly gone up a huge amount in the last 10-15 years. Time was when tree surgeons used to give it away to me. Woodburners have become more popular now though (although I guess if you go back far enough, wood had a high value)

I do understand the effort in cutting and splitting though - I'done one about 10 cube so far this spring!

 

[Goatboy]

I know, back in the good old days I spent a couple of hours a night splitting wood. For me it was a rythmic therapy that allowed me to centre myself, a form of meditation. I used to sell some, give some away too to old folks in the area. It is labour intensive, even with a tractor splitter when I used one of those.

So I see where the price comes in.

I do think that wood grown properly could be a cheaper and better source of fuel than fossil though.

I do feel looking at old posts though like a kiss of death.

 

[santaman2000]

We don't have a forestry industry due to our warmer wet climate not producing strong enough soft wood for building (with a few notable exceptions - duggie fir as an example) as I'm sure you well know....and of course the cost of land in this country doesn't help.

I don't know how good your softwoods are or are not. But I don't thunk a "warm wet climate" has much to do with it. My own land is in South Mississippi. Short of the tropics, it doesn't get much warmer or wetter. yet the pine crop is the State's second leading industry after poultry.

And the nation's leading lumber industry is in the Pacific Northwest rainforests (a bit different climate than the UK but not much)

 

[Goatboy]

I don't know how good your softwoods are or are not. But I don't thunk a "warm wet climate" has much to do with it. My own land is in South Mississippi. Short of the tropics, it doesn't get much warmer or wetter. yet the pine crop is the State's second leading industry after poultry.

And the nation's leading lumber industry is in the Pacific Northwest rainforests (a bit different climate than the UK but not much)

The slow cold grown stuff is better construction timber, but you have to have oodles of it growing that's not had the expense of planting/managing first to make it really worth while cost wise. Hence why the UK, 'cause we had none growing naturally cant compete fiscally with Canada, North America, the Nordics and Russia.

 

[santaman2000]

The slow cold grown stuff is better construction timber.....

Our commercial plantations plant and harvest on a twenty year cycle when clear cutting. And it's mostly for construction timber.

My own land (73 acres with about 35 acres in woodland) isn't managed as a plantation and has never been clear cut (always leaving everything with less than a 16 inch base or so and allowing natural re-seedeing) But even at my age (56) it's already been harvested 4 times and the forester is reccomending I harvest it again.

I still have some (lots actually) old growth Southern Longleaf yellow Pine and a good mix of Birch, Oak, and assorted other woods. Most of the commercial plantations plant and harvest fast growing hybrid pines developed specifically for quick turnover and long, straight wood with medium grain. Yes, slow grown is denser (thus stronger) but TBH it's not really required for ordinary construction.

The days when they only sold the heartwood for lumber and chipped the rest for paper are long gone I'm afraid. But the industry in the Pacific NW and in Canada is closer to what you describe as they do indeed have large areas of old growth timber.

 

[Goatboy]

Our commercial plantations plant and harvest on a twenty year cycle when clear cutting. And it's mostly for construction timber.

My own land (73 acres with about 35 acres in woodland) isn't managed as a plantation and has never been clear cut (always leaving everything with less than a 16 inch base or so and allowing natural re-seedeing) But even at my age (56) it's already been harvested 4 times and the forester is reccomending I harvest it again.

I still have some (lots actually) old growth Southern Longleaf yellow Pine and a good mix of Birch, Oak, and assorted other woods. Most of the commercial plantations plant and harvest fast growing hybrid pines developed specifically for quick turnover and long, straight wood with medium grain. Yes, slow grown is denser (thus stronger) but TBH it's not really required for ordinary construction.

The days when they only sold the heartwood for lumber and chipped the rest for paper are long gone I'm afraid.

Over here most of that grade of timber would go for paper pulp or chipboard, and while particleboards are used in construction it's not really structural. Don't know about the US I'm afraid so can't comment. You can use quick grown stuff for CLS (IE putting up drywall) but not really prefered where structural strength is required. There are however exceptions as always.

 

[21st century pict]

I cut down six of them today

<sigh>

Hey that&#8217;s fair, enough good for you, but there is a big difference between bushcrafting and a overnight camp and building a wood pile for your house orwood going to a pulp plant or the construction industry.
So as for the holier than thou attitude I know the difference and I&#8217;ve had jobs planting, removing "weed" log pole Pine out of Caledonian forests and clearing out invasive willow off Scottish Wildlife Trust reserves and jobs cutting trees.
As we are sticking to the subject of cutting down trees don&#8217;t suppose you can guess one of the reasons they are indicating as and in the process of banning camping on Loch Lomond on the West Highland Way?.
Can you guess what it is yet?
Numptys out in the woods who think they know it all and don&#8217;t have a clue.

 

[Goatboy]

555555555555

 

[Goatboy]

Lodgepole (not log pole) pine is an exotic but does harbour a huge amount of wildlife. Once mooted as the new super tree for the FC, but unfortunatley suffers from butt sweep which means that the most valuable part of the tree is not viable in sawmills. So the FC ended up giving millions of trees for amenity plantings. Most of the Scots Pine in the UK won't be pure stock. In fact probably the oldest strains are around Loch Maree which some geologist believe wasn't very heavily scoured by glaciers in the last ice age. Remember too that if you remove all of the dead timber from an area it's pretty sterile as there is a huge amount of flora and fauna that need that dead wood.

I'd say the main reason for Loch Lomond is that most of the attendees are idiots that no amount of education will stop them cutting standing trees, pooing everywhere and generally being drunken fools. (Even though there's room to bury them all out there :thinkerg