UK Bowhunting laws

[boatman]

If it were a choice of between being able to enjoy field archery, "stalking" 3D targets or animal face ones, in my wood or that of a club without any nonsense about licensing and re-introducing hunting with the bow along with regulation and control then my vote is for the status quo.

As always the sea provides an outlet for atavistic urges. You can spearfish or bow hunt for fish perfectly legally but would this freedom be controlled if land based bow hunting became a possibility?

 

[Toddy]

That's a very good point; I heard of someone spear fishing a porpoise not so long ago didn't go down well with the locals apparantly.....I don't even know if that's legal just now or not ? and a bow is a silent way to take big fish too, especially from a bridge.

There's the rub; do we discuss things like this ? the illegalities as well as the legally permitted methods ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

As ever, we'll see. In the meatime though, we get to admire Dwardo, Grooveski and other's beautiful workmanship

cheers,
Toddy

Here here. I think such bows should always have a place - the skill in their manufacture, the added difficulty in making a target shot, the problem with hand making consistent ammo / arrows - its a whole other sporting dimension - and I personally think gives a historical insight thats impossible to achieve otherwise.

That said, there is, I feel, a place for Dwardos "automated arrow flinging machine" in a hunting scenario, where added accuracy equated to cleaner kills. Different purpose, different tool.

 

[boatman]

No connection etc. but if anyone fancied bow fishing this is one company offering the chance.
http://www.canoecornwall.org.uk/fishing.html

 

[Countryman]

I think its terrible that the tradition of the Bow in this country has largely been lost. The English and Welsh bowman made this country great.

We should be like that Korean Athlete in the Olympics apologising to her whole country for hitting a 9.

 

[British Red]

As a matter of interest there is a company in Australia (the owners of which I know) that do fantastic Bushcraft courses - one of which includes bow hunting.

http://www.aussiesurvivalinstructors.com/course-content/

For me, if I was ever to bow hunt, thats how I would like to do it - in context as part of a wider foraging, bushcrafty, outdoor experience. Their knapped arrowheads are the prettiest I have ever seen too

 

[boatman]

You say that the tradition of archery has been mostly lost Countryman but the instinct is there as we see when we offer archery anywhere to queues of people. Keen participants with women getting an especial thrill from hitting the target no matter how diffident some are when they begin.

 

[Countryman]

Similarly it's interesting to watch the change to predator that occurs in a novice stalker. We have only lived this lifestyle for a couple hundred years. We have been wired the way we are for thousands.


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[Oakleaf]

Toddy

I don't want to get too side tracked on the Boatman issue, merely that I could see how your words could have been read. Very much in province of the screen typed word carrying no inflection, eye contact, wry smile etc etc - so a little or a lot gets lost in translation.

Your phrase - Selling bows is one thing; knowing what the buyer will do with them is entirely another. Cretinous behaviour isn't exclusive to those who aren't mummy's little darlings.

Does contain words that imply a judgment and in isolated context COULD be construed as a criticism of Boatman' s trade - I doubt that was the intention, could see the possible construction?

Following on from that - I know it's your job to cater to those who can afford it,

Obviously it was a response to me, so very aware not to personalise or over analyse. I just ask you to think of the context - specifically the choice of words you used in that post above ( number #80 ) As the reader, the flavour had a definate socialist leaning - us n them if you like. The focus on upper classes seizing the rights of others for food and an implied ridicule in their then turning it into sport. Ok - over dramatising a little - but only a tad. Then to put in that sentence about my livelihood - I really do not believe its over sensitivity on my part - I've got to respectfully say it feels more like prejudice on yours. And that's an extension of the issue that Boatman possibly felt from your post - maybe?

As it happens, I take out far more plumbers, septic tank cleaners, lorry drivers, servicemen, students etc etc than ever Lords, Company Directors, Surgeons etc. Part of my reaction here is because you speak from a perception that doesn't match actuality - see how the grounds for upset come about?

Risking further departure from bows, your commentary regards food underpins the theme - it is illegal to shoot a wood pigeon with the sole intent of eating it. Now pigeon shooting has never ranked high on the the social calender of Posh People so lets leave that element out of it. You now shoot a Wood Pigeon under Authority of a General Licence renewed annually. Nowhere is for food counted as a valid reason in there. Crop protection or protection of other animals are your only recourse. If anything underpins the alienation and move - Machevellian/ Designed / Just plain Apathy ( take your pick ) - toward an utterly dependant populace; surely the elimination of the legal right to feed yourself strikes close to the core.

Hopolophobia is a fear of objects - nothing specific. From your writings - which I emphasize I enjoy and I continue to hope this is all regarded as a mutually respectful conversation not a 'row' - I believe you categorise not just guns, but various objects and blur their use by 'cretins' with the object itself. Near the very definition of the term. I don't have any issue with that and do hope nothing I've said is taken as pejorative. I think we are both secure enough to be able to carry on a 'friendship' with elements of disagreement where never the twain shall meet.

Other than the parallels and comparison with bows etc, I am as keen as any poster to avoid this thread diverting away from the archery element.

We good?

 

[santaman2000]

....Buck shot will certainly work for Deer (hence the name) but the meat damage would be horrendous.



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I've eaten many deer killed with buckshot. It's really not a problem any more than picking the birdshot out of a quail

 

[santaman2000]

Thats is Santaman you have gone too far. The above is not a bow it is an automated arrow flinging machine ......

We're more in agreement here that you realize. However, said bows and accessories are the realities for most bowhunters.

Just as most rifle hunters use telescopic sights now.

 

[santaman2000]

As a matter of interest there is a company in Australia (the owners of which I know) that do fantastic Bushcraft courses - one of which includes bow hunting.

http://www.aussiesurvivalinstructors.com/course-content/

For me, if I was ever to bow hunt, thats how I would like to do it - in context as part of a wider foraging, bushcrafty, outdoor experience. Their knapped arrowheads are the prettiest I have ever seen too

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing those.

 

[santaman2000]

Hypothetical situation BR. Firearms are stipulated for Deer by calibre and Energy. If bows weren't licensed there would be deer pincushioned by 30lb target bows all over the place......

As you say, there are minimum calibers legal for deer (there and here) The minimum are always centerfire calibers here and I assume there as well. Yet 22 rimfires are still permissible to be owned even if not legal for hunting deer (and so are shotguns there for that matter)

How would the mere owning of a bow with less than the required (legal for deer hunting) draw weight be different? Most states here place the legal minimum at 35-40 pounds and yet there are a plethora of lighter weight bows out there. Do some idiots try to use them to hunt? Of course. But you punish the lawbreakers, not the general public. That in a nutshell is why every single state has a separate Fish & Wildlife Conservation Dept (although the specific name varies state to state) with it's own full stop law enforcement officers dedicated specifically to the enforcement of fish and game laws.

 

[Toddy]

To Oakleaf,
We'll just have to agree to disagree. The laws in this country that specify who and with what one may take a fish, for instance, are sport. They are not hunting for dinner. Hunting vermin is a different thing entirely.

No, I am quite clear; I have no fear of objects, I do fear the use that cretins will give certain objects.
"Hoplophobia is a neologism, originally coined to describe an "irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them. It is sometimes used more generally to describe the "fear of firearms" or the "fear of armed citizens."
Citizens are those who practice appropriate behaviour within the urbs incidentally....from a time when rural = bumpkin.

I am neither feart of guns nor citizens, just cretins with tools they have no damned idea how to deal with properly.

I think that as a society we are both incredibly urbanised (and let's not dispute that without urban input the countryside as it is would disappear under a swarm of new builds and nimby dumps, etc., let alone the taxes that keep the roads viable) and incredibly divorced from the realities of food production.
We aren't generally an armed society, but then firearms are very recent in human history really. Bows, spears, knives, nets, hunting with dogs, have a very, very long provenance.

The thread is about Bowhunting in the UK. Honestly I think the only way things will change would be something along the lines of the situation that Santaman2000 described.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning re Edwin's posts; but that is exactly how the bows get into the hands of some people who really ought not have access. It's no different from the European Trader selling the same stuff in Glasgow that the police confiscated.
I know a lot of archers, and they go to huge lengths to sort out safe areas and health and safety guidelines, etc., then along comes a numpty who bought a bow and fires at will causing all kinds of hassle.... or like my neighbour (yep, he's a cretin) who bought a crossbow and fired it straight through his front door was I glad, and were our neighbours incredibly relieved, that he was persuaded to give it away ? too right.

Neighbours who shoot rarely attend shoots with stalkers, etc. unless they're beating. That said, they do syndicate to take on a small area for themselves and organise their own shooting. Everything they shoot ends up as food. I asked one what his take was on bowhunting. He replied, "Stupidity; there's a reason we buy bullets. If they want to do that why do they not just take a camera and see how close they can get? ". But then, we live in a hilly bit of the world; I can see why on flat land such as BR's that something else might be a better bet.

I like archery; I have made a great many ad hoc bows over the years the last ones were for my own sons. Would I do it now ? No, not here. If I had masses of space, then probably. I don't, most folks don't, and swing parks are generally not suitable places for archery.
Folks who make their own, who practice with care and a regard for others ? good on them, I have no issues with them at all.
I don't know that many folks would have a problem with that, might have a problem with shooting deer and so on with them

Folks like my neighbour taking it into his head that he wanted a crossbow though, with neither space to practice or regard for the sensibilities of others.....ehm, no.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

We'd need a whole new contingent of policemen then santaman2000; at present it's the water bailiffs and each police division has a few wildlife crimes officers, and that's pretty much it. We are apparantly among the least policed nations though.

cheers,
M

 

[Oakleaf]

We'll settle at that Toddy.

 

[santaman2000]

.....The thread is about Bowhunting in the UK. Honestly I think the only way things will change would be something along the lines of the situation that Santaman2000 described......

That's twice you've referenced an idea or suggestion of mine as a good one. I appreciate the compliment, but could you be specific/ Which suggestion?

 

[santaman2000]

We'd need a whole new contingent of policemen then santaman2000; at present it's the water bailiffs and each police division has a few wildlife crimes officers, and that's pretty much it. We are apparantly among the least policed nations though.

cheers,
M

Yes you would if you followed the full model. Your culture is generally more law abiding though and I expect there would be a higher level of "self policing" by the other hunters.

Of course if you did follow the full model, the licensing fees and special excise taxes on hunting equipment here (relatively low TBH) pay not only for the specialized policing but the vast majority of the conservation budget.

 

[dwardo]

Yes you would if you followed the full model. Your culture is generally more law abiding though and I expect there would be a higher level of "self policing" by the other hunters.

Of course if you did follow the full model, the licensing fees and special excise taxes on hunting equipment here (relatively low TBH) pay not only for the specialized policing but the vast majority of the conservation budget.

What are the average prices for the various tickets n such? roughly..

 

[boatman]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning re Edwin's posts; but that is exactly how the bows get into the hands of some people who really ought not have access. It's no different from the European Trader selling the same stuff in Glasgow that the police confiscated.

I trust that you have the same attitude to all the knives offered for sale on this forum.

Incidentally the law had changed in Scotland in connection with reenactment traders, even though this means that "numpties" would be able to buy arrows and her stock would have been safe at a reenactment as would mine even in Scotland.
Citation, commencement and interpretation
1.—(1) This Order may be cited as the Knife Dealer’s Licence (Historical Re-enactment) (Scotland) Order 2011 and comes into force on 19th August 2011.
(2) In this Order “the Act” means the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982.
Exceptions for certain activities
2.—(1) The activities in this article are not to be taken to be businesses for the purposes of section 27A(4) of the Act.
(2) The selling, hiring, offering or exposing for sale or hire, lending or giving of an arrow but only where that activity is undertaken—
(a) in connection with a historical re-enactment event; and
(b) within the immediate vicinity of a historical re-enactment event.
(3) The selling, hiring, offering or exposing for sale or hire, lending or giving of an article within the meaning of section 27A(2) of the Act but only where that activity is undertaken—
(a) in connection with a historical re-enactment event; and
(b) within the immediate vicinity of a historical re-enactment event.
(4) In this article—
“arrow” means an arrow designed or adapted for use in the sport of archery; and “historical re-enactment event” means an educational or entertainment event, to which members of the public are admitted on payment of money or money’s worth, and in which participants attempt to recreate aspects of a historical event or period (which includes, but is not limited to, battle re-enactment and combat demonstrations).