Two way radios

[SamBell]

Hi,
Im looking to get some radios/walkie talkies for general outdoors communication, partly as an emergency back up if get split up etc. When on Snowdon in February using cheapish PMR446 radios we lost contact as one person was up a ridge so not in direct line of sight although distance could only have been a few hundred meters.

I've recently aquired a CB licence and a handheld cb which when used with to talk with a CB in a car with ariel gives reasonable range but not great. I also believe that the range of to handheld CB's to each other is not great because of the frequency using small ariels??

Has anyone tried the PMR446 radios as in argos that claim 6km and 8km ranges? The Uniden PMR885/845 and Binatone Trek 100 respectivley I think. Do these give a better range than others? How well are they built?
Also are the "Proffesional" versions such as kenwood or motorolla ones worth the extra money?

Is the ammature radio route difficult or expensive? What range can you expect from the entry level licence from handhelds? How much would it cost to get a licence and radios?

Sorry for the length of the post. Thanks for any help.

Thanks
Sam

 

[leon-1]

Hi Sam, I have a couple of the old TA200's by motorola (I don't think they make them any more), I have used them over long range and short and they have always been pretty good.

They were designed for walkers, climbers and mountain bikers so doing ridge walks and climbs are pretty much thier bread and butter.

One of the major factors affecting any radio is frequency, the higher the frequency the better the line of site required. PMR446 use the same frequency so the other factors that come in are weather and the antenna, these have quite large antennas in comparison to other models and are quite sensitive, I have even used them over longer ranges than they state that they can be used over so I quite like them.

Another thing about the PMR446 is that they are limited by thier wattage, mine throw out 500mW power wise (the legal limit I believe for this type of radio) and they do get the 3Km that they claim (and a little more). Even with technology having moved on I think the conditions and line of sight for one of these units to achieve 8Km would have to be superb (line of sight totally uninterupted, weather conditions condusive to radio signal transmission/reception, loss free 500mW transmission and the like). 5Km is quite realistic I think now, unfortunately though the only way you will find out is to take a set out and use them or hope that someone can tell you of a set that works.

It maybe worth speaking to the likes of mountain rescue teams, they normally have a pretty good idea of what actually works

 

[Goose]

I use the PMR radios too, I have a pair of "proper"motorolas and a pair from the disney shop that cost(about) £20, all PMR with sub channels. There is no difference in the range as far as I can tell, a friend loaned all four for a skiing trip and reckoned that the disney ones actually worked better!
I beleive all the UK PMR sets work on 0.5 watt which limits the range unless you have licence sets, the american sets, illegal in uk and europe, have a bit more power but work on different frequencies to UK sets.
The range quoted on packaging and adverts, as with all radios, depends on conditions more than type of radio.
On a holiday in france recently we went up the eiffel tower, we had the radios in case we had split up, we had heard noone else on the channel all day but as we got out of the lift on top of the tower the radios went mad with radio traffic!
I have used several types of radio in the past and the build quality seems to differ(motorola seem pretty sturdy) the range is not really an issue as they are all built to pretty much the same specs.

 

[BorderReiver]

http://www.rsgb.org.uk/
Have a think about becoming a radio amature.

Much more choice in equipment and power.If your group all give it a go that would probably solve all your communications problems.

 

[SamBell]

Thanks for all the info and opinions.

What kind of costs would be involved in equiping say two people with amature radio sets? Am I right in thinking 10 miles from handhelds is reasonable?

At the moment PMR446 radios look the best option at least in the short term though gaining an amature licence would give much better range I think?? Im still interested as to if the radios advertised as having 6 or 8km ranges are infact superior, as has been pointed out power is limmited to 500mw for PMR446.

Thanks
Sam

 

[Big John]

Hi,

Not much to add to what has already been said really, I've got a pair of fairly cheap binatone's and my mate has a couple of motorola's. I would say the motorola's are slightly better - but not much, you can only tell when we are both standing next to each other listening to someone else who is on the limit of range. In hilly woodland we get about 1km range which isn't great but still very handy!

Try to look for some that come with rechargable batteries and chargers, and look for ones that come with ear-pieces as well, they are dead handy when walking about in constant contact with each other and can cost £20 a pop to buy as extra's!!

Check out this site for more info and loads of reviews:

http://www.446user.co.uk/review_index_all.html

 

[SamBell]

Thanks for the link, i've looked on there in the past, its a great resource but unfortunatley they havn't reviewed the Unidens or Binatones i've been looking at. Also I think id prefer the push to talk button on the side of the radio so is easier to press with gloved hands, does anyone know if the above have this?? The cheaper end of the market in PMR seem to have front mounted PTT buttons.
Thanks again
Sam

 

[BorderReiver]

Thanks for all the info and opinions.

What kind of costs would be involved in equiping say two people with amature radio sets? Am I right in thinking 10 miles from handhelds is reasonable?

At the moment PMR446 radios look the best option at least in the short term though gaining an amature licence would give much better range I think?? Im still interested as to if the radios advertised as having 6 or 8km ranges are infact superior, as has been pointed out power is limmited to 500mw for PMR446.

Thanks
Sam

With the rapid progress in everything electronic there is a lot of amature gear available second hand.If you get involved in amature radio you may even find stuff being given to you.
One major advantage of ham gear is the 5 watt power output and of course the extensive repeater system which greatly increases range.

 

[george]

The other thing to consider is licensed PBR equipment

The licence costs £60 for three years if you can demonstrate a "business need"

This allows you to use 5 watt handhelds that will give you substantially more range than the unlicensed versions.

Lots of info on the link that Big John posted

George

 

[SamBell]

The other thing to consider is licensed PBR equipment

The licence costs £60 for three years if you can demonstrate a "business need"

This allows you to use 5 watt handhelds that will give you substantially more range than the unlicensed versions.

Lots of info on the link that Big John posted

George

Hi,
Thanks i've thought about that option too, has anyone tried it? I know range is all subject to conditions but what kind of range will 5watt handhelds give? I presume there aren't the same restictions on ariels as PMR446? Are there any good deals on radios that anyone knows of? Are u assigned an individual frequency, or free to use a range?

Many thanks for the advice
Sam

 

[george]

Hi,
Thanks i've thought about that option too, has anyone tried it? I know range is all subject to conditions but what kind of range will 5watt handhelds give? I presume there aren't the same restictions on ariels as PMR446? Are there any good deals on radios that anyone knows of? Are u assigned an individual frequency, or free to use a range?

Many thanks for the advice
Sam

We're just about to get a new system at work from these guys http://www.bc-ltd.co.uk/

They've been really helpful on the phone. I would suggest giving them a ring.

George

 

[SamBell]

We're just about to get a new system at work from these guys http://www.bc-ltd.co.uk/

They've been really helpful on the phone. I would suggest giving them a ring.

George

Hi,
Thanks for the link, I'll probably give them an email.
What does everyone think of these?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7547270736&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1
What wattage and range will they give? I believe they wouldnt be strictly legal on PMR446 as aren't type approved, removable ariel and possibly to high tx power? But do people use radios like this? Does it cause a problem and is it policed? Any experience of them?
Many thanks for reading and any responses. Cheers.
Sam

 

[BorderReiver]

Hi,
Thanks for the link, I'll probably give them an email.
What does everyone think of these?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7547270736&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1
What wattage and range will they give? I believe they wouldnt be strictly legal on PMR446 as aren't type approved, removable ariel and possibly to high tx power? But do people use radios like this? Does it cause a problem and is it policed? Any experience of them?
Many thanks for reading and any responses. Cheers.
Sam

Looks like ex police gear,should be pretty robust.

Not legal to use without a licence but as long as you don't interfere with anyone else you shouldn't have any problems.(I didn't say that).

 

[Doc]

Some amateur radio handheld can easily be broadbanded and then used on PMR 446 channels. You have to check they have the right channel steps. 446 is close enough to the 70cm amateur band so the supplied antenna will work well. It is not legal in the UK as they are not type approved for 446 however. I could not say what the chances of being prosecuted are. I personally would not use them like this as I would risk losing my amateur radio licence.
Most modern ham rigs also have CTSS and digitally coded squelch.

The VHF/UHF dual band models will also transmit on the 2m VHF amateur band and with broadbanding on the marine VHF band. Again not type approved so not legal. However, if you're boat is sinking then the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 will not be the most important thing on your mind.

I have a pair of Alinco PMR 446 hand helds (£100 each new - I bought them second hand for rather less) and a £10 binatone one. Range is similar. The Alinco has better audio quality and ergonomics. The binatone came with 300mAh Nicad rechargeable AAA batteries but I use the Alinco with 2100 mAh AA rechargeables - about five times the battery life. You are quite right to want side -mounted PTT.

My advice would be to go for mid range PMR 446 sets like motorola or Alan, or, if the person you want to talk to is game for it, go for an amateur radio licence - it opens a lot of doors, can be used abroad, lets you use HF, repeaters, satellite,digital modes, etc, etc.

I would have to say that 10 miles is optimistic for a pair of 5watt VHF or UHF radios using helical (rubber duck) antennas over average terrain. Three or four miles would be more likely, but you won't get even that if there's a mountain between you. Being high up makes all the difference. I have worked a Welsh station from a Scottish mountain top, via the Isle of Man repeater station, using a 2.5 watt VHF handheld.

 

[SamBell]

Hi,

"The VHF/UHF dual band models will also transmit on the 2m VHF amateur band and with broadbanding on the marine VHF band. Again not type approved so not legal. However, if you're boat is sinking then the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949"

Are these radios legal for amature use? Is it just marine use they are not approved for?


"I would have to say that 10 miles is optimistic for a pair of 5watt VHF or UHF radios using helical (rubber duck) antennas over average terrain. Three or four miles would be more likely, but you won't get even that if there's a mountain between you. Being high up makes all the difference. I have worked a Welsh station from a Scottish mountain top, via the Isle of Man repeater station, using a 2.5 watt VHF handheld."

We would be interested in doing the foundation licence, as then we would be sure to be legal hopefully. I would apprecitate anyones experience of gaining one, costs, time, difficulty etc. Also if these radios couldn't be used on an amature licence then what kind of price are ones that can? As you say PMR 446 looks like the easiest short term answer though I am prepared to look to the long term and possibly take the amature radio route. Many thanks for all the advice and appologies for the many questions.
Thanks
Sam

 

[BorderReiver]

Hi,

"The VHF/UHF dual band models will also transmit on the 2m VHF amateur band and with broadbanding on the marine VHF band. Again not type approved so not legal. However, if you're boat is sinking then the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949"

Are these radios legal for amature use? Is it just marine use they are not approved for?


"I would have to say that 10 miles is optimistic for a pair of 5watt VHF or UHF radios using helical (rubber duck) antennas over average terrain. Three or four miles would be more likely, but you won't get even that if there's a mountain between you. Being high up makes all the difference. I have worked a Welsh station from a Scottish mountain top, via the Isle of Man repeater station, using a 2.5 watt VHF handheld."

We would be interested in doing the foundation licence, as then we would be sure to be legal hopefully. I would apprecitate anyones experience of gaining one, costs, time, difficulty etc. Also if these radios couldn't be used on an amature licence then what kind of price are ones that can? As you say PMR 446 looks like the easiest short term answer though I am prepared to look to the long term and possibly take the amature radio route. Many thanks for all the advice and appologies for the many questions.
Thanks
Sam

Good idea to stay legal Sam

Ask your local library for their list of clubs and societies and find your local radio club.
Give the chairman or secretary a ring and they should sort you out.The course is not expensive and kids as young as 10 can pass the first stages without too much effort.
You can get information here http://www.rsgb.org.uk/

 

[Doc]

With an advanced amateur licence you can use any equipment you want, so long as you only transmit on amateur frequencies, and with 400 watts or less. You can modify commercial radios, military surplus, use purpose built amateur kit or build it yourself. Marine and aviation radio operators have to use type approved equipment but licensed amateurs don't.

With a foundation licence you do have to use pupose built amateur gear, but a second hand dual band hand held will be less than £100, and a single bander probably less than £50 second hand.

The RSGB website has all the info on the foundation licence. The test is not difficult - I think eight year olds have passed it.

The foundation license does restrict you slightly - 10 watts, no satellites, no operation abroad, purpose built radios only. You do get to use the HF (shortwave) bands that allow worldwide communication.

You can also link an amateur handheld to a GPS set and a box of tricks called a TNC. Anyone with a computer, a TNC and another radio can then plot your location on a map, even if out of direct range (other users pass your position data automatically). One radio amateur in America had his car stolen, but had difficulty convincing the police that he really was tracking the culprits on his PC...

Look forward to meeting you on the air.

 

[Buckshot]

Silly question time...

Do PMR's use the same frequencies as as other dedicated radio systems?
Like amateur or CB radio for instance?

Mark

 

[Doc]

In this country, the eight PMR 446 frequencies are allocated for the PMR446 service only. I vaguely remember reading that in France PMR446 channel 1 is used by SNCF (railways) and not available for public use.

CB uses two blocks of 40 channels at around 27MHz. There used to be some conflicts with model control frequencies but I think no longer.

Amateurs have multiple frequency allocations throughout the spectrum. Some are for exclusive amateur use. Others are shared with maritime radio, the MOD and international broadcasters.

 

[Moonraker]

I was looking around today at higher strength PMR446 transceiver radio which would be robust and also offer better coverage and came across this model which is military spec build and used by bikers. It is the Wintec 80 Series PMR446 Transceiver Radio and there is a good review here:

Wintec A80 Remus - LP-4502

Performance

My brother and I use these on our Bikes; it replaces an icom easiwave and out performs it o n every level. The sound is crystal clear and transmission is good. At 0.5w we get an average of 3km in town and 5km in the open....... The volume is loud enough to hear through good quality earplugs.

Overall it appears to offer a high build spec and good performance.

They are imported and sold in the UK by Intaride who offer systems for bikes but also separates. Price for RT hand held, Single Charger & NiMh Battery, Harness, Headset and Standard PTT Button is £99. Web site with packs and separates, accessories here:

XL & XL PRO BIKE-TO-BIKE SYSTEMS