Tribal Point

[caliban]

Hi! I'm looking for a bit of advice on buying some steel. I've been hammering some arrowheads out of 4 inch nails. I'm fairly happy with way they came out (need a bit more practice though, obviously).

I'd like to have a go at making some from carbon steel that I could harden and temper. Trouble is I've no idea what I'm buying. I think I'm looking for 4mil roundstock. I looked on Cromwells and saw something called "silver steel". I don't know if this is suitable, also it seems really cheap, so much so that I think I must be misunderstanding something.

http://www.cromwell.co.uk/browse?page=2

Appreciate any advice.

Cheers!

 

[John Fenna]

Why go high tec...the San (Bushmen) use fencing wire hammered out to make their arrowheads - works a treat too!

 

[caliban]

Well that's a good point John. Fact is it looks like a bit of roundstock wouldnt cost much more than a handful of nails (not if you buy the buggers at B&Q anyway) and to be honest I've always been scared to have a go at forging, but I've always wanted to, so I'm thinking that making a wee arrowhead might be a good introduction. BTW, I just put that arrow straight through my stuffed plastic target sack and right through the quarter inch ply board I had behind that, so the San might be on to something. Cheers for your interest mate.

 

[JohnC]

At a re-enactment show the guy making arrowheads said they wouldn't harden arrowheads as this may make them break on impact, but bending was fine.

He was turning these out from scrap rebar

 

[Matt.S]

Most metal arrowheads throughout history weren't hardened -- I suspect mainly due to costs vs. benefit.

Silver steel is about 1% ('high') carbon steel, with some other minor alloying elements. It's available from most half-decent engineering and tool-supply places. Masonry/concrete nails are a similar steel and readily available. Be warned that high-carbon steel is harder to forge than mild steel -- both stiffer under the hammer and with a narrower/pickier useful temperature range.

If you want to save money go for some black mild steel -- 6mm is about 50p/metre in small quantities but from B&Q and the like costs more. Let me know what you need/want and I'll see what I have in the resource pile, I'll let you have it for postage cost.

One word of warning: best not to put anything galvanised or chromed in the fire, it'll burn off in a cloud of heavy metal oxides -- and that can do all manner of ugly to you. Trust me on that!

 

[caliban]

Matt that's most generous of you mate, I'll have a look in B@Q, etc. If you don't mind me asking, what's the significance of the the "black" part in black mild steel. From what Jon C and John Fenna say, I might be just as well to stick with mild steel nails, it's a bit more robust than I thought it would be anyway. Thanks for the tip on forging carbon, I've just been cold forging these nails (heating didn't seem to make much difference anyway), so would hot forging carbon be a lot harder do you think?

Thanks very much, very helpful and very generous. Cheers!

John C, that looks like it could bring down an elehant.

 

[Matt.S]

Cold-forging high carbon steel probably won't work -- especially if your steel isn't already annealed (in its softened state).

You have to get steel up to at least a cherry red glow (in indirect light) before it behaves much different under the hammer. That's about 850 degrees C. Mild steel is usually worked at a yellow heat -- it works a lot easier. High carbon steel shouldn't be taken much higher than a bright orange unless you can help it.

Steel is rolled from big chunks into smaller lengths -- all sorts of cross-sections but mainly round, square or rectangular. Basically like rolling out dough in the kitchen. Most rolling happens when the steel is hot as it's softer. The result is 'black' steel -- the name comes from the coating of black 'mill scale' (iron oxide) whci results form the heat. The rounds won't be perfectly round, the squares not perfectly square and the dimensions will vary a little. If you need something more precise -- if you're building a machine tool for instance -- you buy 'bright' steel, which is black steel that has had the scale removed and the dimensions corrected.

 

[caliban]

Thanks a lot Matt, that's very helpful. I'm guessing that "bright" steel is what Cromwells are calling "silver" steel. So if I do try forging carbon steel I'll heat it up to cherry red and beat it out hot. I'm going to finish off my bag of nails since they seem to be stronger than I thought the were anyway. Thanks very much for your help.

 

[Matt.S]

Thanks a lot Matt, that's very helpful. I'm guessing that "bright" steel is what Cromwells are calling "silver" steel.

You're half-way there! 'Silver' steel is a high carbon steel that's supplied bright. I believe those on the left-side of the pond refer to it as 'drill rod' -- as in rod for making drill bits.

 

[Everything Mac]

not sure i would bother heat treating arrow heads.

why do you want them hard anyway?

get some mild steel and get it hot then quench in cold water - it will be harder than normal mild - but still softer than hardened steel.

andy

 

[caliban]

Mac, American hunting broadheads are hardened, so I thought it was normal practice, seems like it maybe has as many disadvantages as advantages, unless you're hunting deer, which I'm certainly not planning, so I'm happy.

PS, will heating and quenching mild steel make it harder, I didn't think that it was possible to even harden it a bit.

 

[Matt.S]

PS, will heating and quenching mild steel make it harder, I didn't think that it was possible to even harden it a bit.

Depends. Most modern 'mild' steel will harden a little bit, but not much.

 

[Everything Mac]

it won't harden much but you can make it a bit harder.

you can case harden it by rubbing antler on it while red hot - or dipping the hot end into a load of charcoal dust.

by hammering the end you also refine the structure of the metal which will essentially work harden it.

if you combine hammering with the above then dip in water while cherry red - you will end up with a harder product.

no where near as hard as a high carbon steel would get but im sure it would do for what ever you want to do.

andy

 

[caliban]

Just to say thanks a lot to you both, very interestingand helpful.