Traditionalism vs Modernism

[gaz_miggy]

my hole look and beleaf in to bush craft is the abilitly to go light and to be ablie
exstend ones time out in the backcontry as long as you need or wont. im stsrting to try and go lighter and lighter with less and less. ray mears put it bess when he said the buty about bushcraft is that what ever you forgot or left behind you ether do with out or imbrovise.

 

[Brian Curnel]

There's a saying:

Know more... Carry Less.

By knowing primitive technology you use your surroundings in place of man-made materials. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some effort but it's the only way to go for me.

Bri

 

[stovie]

There's a saying:

Know more... Carry Less.

By knowing primitive technology you use your surroundings in place of man-made materials. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some effort but it's the only way to go for me.

Bri

I'll go along with that, Brian.

 

[karen]

Having read everything that people have posted here, i think that it's safe to say, each to their own!!

I personally feel that there is no right or wrong way when it comes to bushcraft, because whether Modern or Traditional, awareness is whats important.

There are no rules saying that one is better than the other!

Karen

 

[Brian Curnel]

Hi Karen...

You're right there is no right or wrong, it's not about that. It's just about prefrence. Do you think it's more important to carry a lighter and a spare in a ziplock bag, or know how to start a fire by friction without carrying extra gear? It just boils down to know-how. I started backpacking in 1986, and I hated carrying such a large pack to be prepared for everything, so I started learning more and more about Native skills and Primitive technology and now I carry dry tinder thats about it. I enjoy the outdoor experience more because i'm not heaving a large 5000cu.inch pack on a branch woven trail. Sometimes in the summer I will take a Hammock so that is a luxery but most in cold weather I build a shelter and sleep on a coal bed or hot rocks. Like you said though its about prefrence not that one is better overall, but in my own opinion Why work harder when you can work smarter....

 

[Squidders]

A lot of strong words are used like "important" or "Carry less by knowing more" and it can lead to one-upmanship and rules in place of advice. Like all things in life, I think a balance is advantageous.

To wish only to accomplish what our ancestors did with the tools they have is very worthy but I personally feel that I can accomplish more.

In my mind, a good knife has evolved from a shard of flint; both cut well and can be things of beauty. Therm-a-rests have evolved out of reindeer hides...

These comparisons work well out of context because I take what I like from the past I enjoy. If I lived in New Zealand and wished to sleep out in the cold at some point in the distant past, I wouldn't have access to reindeer. I would have to spend an hour or so collecting grass to insulate my bed... That doesn't sound so appealing as a nice furry reindeer hide, so I go with the reindeer.

If I wanted a good cutting tool 2000 BC and there was no flint, I’d have to trade, steal or improvise and a good cutting tool is hard to improvise… Stealing would have probably involved killing or being killed and that leaves trade… so instead, I’ll just buy a knife now.

If I'm by a beach and I want a shelter, I could try to bag a seal or attempt to make a canopy of kelp using a driftwood frame... or more than likely, I'd just try and find a cave to make my own. I do have a preference for a nice tarp though. I also happen to like canvas, not because it's "traditional" but because its harder to set fire to

I like to be in nature so for me, I take what I can from the new and the old but always whilst trying not to exclude nature. My ultimate goal is not to aspire to be the same as our ancestors but to try new things, to explore and to investigate.

I commend anyone who has attained a level of skill where they can live for a time without the modern trappings but like the truly modern, I think having a polarised view can limit your enjoyment by restricting your choices.

As with all things, these are simply im inane ramblings and should not form any kind of pressure to do one thing over another.

- Joe

 

[Woods Wanderer]

i would like to get to be as primitive as possable the reason being that as a hobby it is way more satisfiing and it makes my mind alot more resilant
modern ways might be easyer but easyer isnt allways better when i came out of school and got a job i went to work as a laberor and people said to me why not get a job on a checkout in asda or tesco its easyer but i chose to dig holes if you look at them there now miserable and have to spend most there wages being bored in a gym i short i find using modern things easyer but boring
i still take a few lucurys my kit list gos along the lines of woolen blanket(ask medievel reenactors) a copper cup knife flint and steel clothes now im not much of a crafts man but i utalise the skills i do know to the best

 

[Minotaur]

My take on this is that we should look at it like medicine, Modern medicine treats the disease, traditional medicine treats the person, but neither have the whole story seprately. I am not looking for old knowledge or new knowledge but for right or correct knowledge.

A lot of what Squidders wrote rings true for me, but this the most : -

I commend anyone who has attained a level of skill where they can live for a time without the modern trappings but like the truly modern, I think having a polarised view can limit your enjoyment by restricting your choices.

.

I go old or modern for practical reasons. A fire drill is a way to make fire, which does not cost me, or more importantly waste, resources. A steel lasts a lot longer than a pack of matches but takes up the same amount of room. Look at the first choice of the knife for most bushcrafters, the Mora, and even if it cost 10 times as much, it still follows that design. The Mora's design goes back a long time, but I use one because it works.

I am forcing everything in my kit to earn it's place, because carrying a big heavy rucsac is not a lot of fun. My Goretex is going because the Light weight hikers have the right idea, what I was taught before it came along makes more sense, and most importantly, is a hell of a lot cheaper.

I would actually be more interested in how much your Bushcrafting has effected your day to day living. Are you, like me, trying to go as green as possible, becuase it is the respectful, Bushcraft, way to go?

Regards,

PS My prediction for the next lost skill, Navigation without a GPS.

 

[Martyn]

A lot of strong words are used like "important" or "Carry less by knowing more" and it can lead to one-upmanship and rules in place of advice. Like all things in life, I think a balance is advantageous.

To wish only to accomplish what our ancestors did with the tools they have is very worthy but I personally feel that I can accomplish more.

In my mind, a good knife has evolved from a shard of flint; both cut well and can be things of beauty. Therm-a-rests have evolved out of reindeer hides...

These comparisons work well out of context because I take what I like from the past I enjoy. If I lived in New Zealand and wished to sleep out in the cold at some point in the distant past, I wouldn't have access to reindeer. I would have to spend an hour or so collecting grass to insulate my bed... That doesn't sound so appealing as a nice furry reindeer hide, so I go with the reindeer.

If I wanted a good cutting tool 2000 BC and there was no flint, I’d have to trade, steal or improvise and a good cutting tool is hard to improvise… Stealing would have probably involved killing or being killed and that leaves trade… so instead, I’ll just buy a knife now.

If I'm by a beach and I want a shelter, I could try to bag a seal or attempt to make a canopy of kelp using a driftwood frame... or more than likely, I'd just try and find a cave to make my own. I do have a preference for a nice tarp though. I also happen to like canvas, not because it's "traditional" but because its harder to set fire to

I like to be in nature so for me, I take what I can from the new and the old but always whilst trying not to exclude nature. My ultimate goal is not to aspire to be the same as our ancestors but to try new things, to explore and to investigate.

I commend anyone who has attained a level of skill where they can live for a time without the modern trappings but like the truly modern, I think having a polarised view can limit your enjoyment by restricting your choices.

Well said.

As with all things, these are simply im inane ramblings and should not form any kind of pressure to do one thing over another.

- Joe

On the contrary Joe, it's the most sense I've heard anyone talk on the subject in a long time.

I also read people offering "instructions" and talking of "real bushcrafters" who should abandon technology and find myself wondering what they would say to someone in a wheelchair.

 

[pierre girard]

There's a saying:

Know more... Carry Less.

By knowing primitive technology you use your surroundings in place of man-made materials. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some effort but it's the only way to go for me.

Bri

Sounds like something my grandfather used to say - with a twist. "White man, big pack - little food. Indian, little pack - big food."

Kind of a statement on essentials.

PG

 

[OhCanada]

From this side of the pond Bushcraft is mainly a UK word. We have been hiking (walking), backpacking (carry your home on your back for overnight or more), and camping (living in one spot ie. car camping, etc.) here in North America for years.

Bush craft is the craft of using materials found in the woods (ie. bush) to provide for your needs. If you carry a nylon pack, gas stove, silnylon tent, you are just backpacking.

I came to these Bushcraft fourms curious about what goes on in the UK. Well some have turned into more of a hiking forum or a survivalist fourm (ie bug out bags, home storage, etc) while misleadingly keeping the Bushcraft name.

Bushcraft is about natural crafts...and sure we cut corners as we like with steel knives, bashas, nylon packs, etc...after all, there is nothing 100% primative about sharing our knowledge through the internet and nothing primitive about driving a car to the trailhead.

Want to be a modern survivalist? Great. Want to be a backpacker? Great. Want to be a primitive skills student? Great. Do whatever you enjoy, do whatever is important to you. People are complex, there is going to be a lot of cross-over between all the things we enjoy.

As for Bushcraftuk.com? :You_Rock_

 

[pierre girard]

From this side of the pond Bushcraft is mainly a UK word. We have been hiking (walking), backpacking (carry your home on your back for overnight or more), and camping (living in one spot ie. car camping, etc.) here in North America for years....


....As for Bushcraftuk.com? :You_Rock_

Have to second that. I don't believe I'd ever heard the term "bushcraft" before I happened on this forum - but I've sure enjoyed it since I got here. I enjoy the enthusiasm.

Folks "from this side of the pond" don't talk much on this subject. Old hat, I guess.

PG

 

[Roving Rich]

Heeeheee - Now to me the Origin of the term "Bushcraft" comes from Canada via Mors Kochanski (see him this summer at the bushmoot folks )

Anyway - Yup Craft of the Bush as literal translation, but to me the "Bush" IS a modern thing, that little bit of wilderness still left, that we haven't ruined yet. And the craft - call it the skill of getting by, out there in the "Bush". Now everthing I have ever experienced of folks living in the "Bush" involves getting by with whatever resources are available. Whether that is ripping a bit off the rusting pickup truck to fix the snowmobile, knapping arrowheads from beer bottles or building a birchbark canoe.
I have full respect to anyone who can live by such limited resources from "first Peoples" to lonely outback farmer. All of whom demand least of the earths resources and seem set back from the consumer society which appears to prevail in the West.
Us lot, well IMO what we have in common is an enjoyment of nature. So I will term that as the BushcraftUK umbrella under which we all stand. Now some of us are consumers, some of us are "first peoples". Some only have modern skills and kit, others ancient knowledge. So long as you enjoy being outside thats the main thing. - You are welcome at my fireside.
I think respect for nature steers all of us here towards natural resources, and in turn the skills to work them, which naturally makes us more environmentally conscious and "tread lighter on the earth".
I believe we are all on this same path, just some further along this path than others, and of course we have all started from different places.

Cheers
Rich

 

[harlequin]

Sorry, newbie posting again.
I'm of the opinion that everything changes, that immovable rock that you look at that seems so permanent, for example Apply enviroment and time to it (as we all experience) and that rock will change. The only thing you have to get your head around is the length of time.
So, from our bushcraft ancestors, who lived in harmony with the land, one of their (our) greatest skills is adaptability (because everything changes).
Why, therefore, would you use a flint shard when we already posses the knowledge to smelt iron,
yes, I know you may need to rely on this, but if you had a choice, which would you have, traditionalism or practicality? Not to make use of the knowledge we have acquired would (to me) seem foolish. This knowledge has been passed down to us from our ancestors, wouldn't it be a bit silly to ignore these millenia of trial and error.
What I'm tryong to say is, yes to traditionalism, but yes to the advancements we've made since.

 

[Brian Curnel]

[/B]).
Why, therefore, would you use a flint shard when we already posses the knowledge to smelt iron,
yes, I know you may need to rely on this, but if you had a choice, which would you have, traditionalism or practicality? Not to make use of the knowledge we have acquired would (to me) seem foolish. This knowledge has been passed down to us from our ancestors, wouldn't it be a bit silly to ignore these millenia of trial and error.
What I'm tryong to say is, yes to traditionalism, but yes to the advancements we've made since.

Well let me address these several issues here since I have been gone for a while...(HELLO AGAIN!)

Why would we revert to traditionalism? We should,nt Revert to traditionalism unless it gives the person a sense of being more atune to nature. Also it is a preference, if you want to rely on a knife,saw,MRE's or butane thats fine but be knowledgable in the ancestral ways. You made a good point by saying that these milleania has offered several trail and error accomplishments but can also save your can if you are caught without your needy tools or modern gadgets. There is an infinate amount of knowledge that has been passed down fron generation to the next and it would be foolheardy to ignore the benefits of what each has to offer and use then in conjunction with one another.

Bri

 

[Salix]

A lot of talk on Tradational vs Modern and vice versa, lots of good argumants for both i would think. In England because we have a distinct lack of wilderness, and most people now live in or near a sprawling conurbation, the idea of getting out of the rat race and living a bit closer to earth or our ancestors appeals greatly, on a number of levels. Yes we have spoke of the love or wonder of nature and wild things, but did our ancestors view the world as we do? To them it was life or Death, to us it's generally not that important as we live quite comfortably in our modern world. Economics generally dictates this. Also for us modern day humans there is a spiritual aspect that we look for in our lives that is sometimes lacking, that we cam often find in this idea of wild living, it simplifies things down to a basic level of man and nature, man against nature, man alongside nature. How many of us have this romantic notoin of our ancestors skillfully crafting a living from the land, in reallity life was hard and short, with many dangers. As humans we take from the past and adapt it for the present, we always have done, always will do. And if it means that these crafts are kept alive by weekend warriors, then thats a good thing, they are kept alive.

Mark

 

[harlequin]

Trad vs mod.
Is that what we are really about?
It depends on you're point of view, what you are seeking,
the answers to be given or the answers to be found.

It really is a point of view

For me it's pragmatism.