Thoughts on a Ketogenic Diet?
- Thread starter TeeDee
- Start date
I'm ok mate, thank you though. Been in remission for just over a year.
I can't find the article I read on the first large grain producing countries being the first areas where cancer was recorded.
This site has some info, and was where I got my diet plans from.
http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/what-causes-cancer.html
The first cases of cancer that we have archaeological proof of are hunter gatherers, and we have sound evidence of bone tumours in Homo Sapiens Neandethalis too.....120,000 years old skeleton for instance.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0064539
Rare, but not unknown.
Glad to hear you're on the mend Nice65
M
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0064539
Rare, but not unknown.
Glad to hear you're on the mend Nice65
M
I keep carbs down, apart from beer . Mainly protein and green veg. Not much fruit, and hardly any sugar. If I do get the urge for porridge or something then I just go with it. I think your body often knows what it requires.
Part of this is due to hip problems brought about by the steroids involved during chemo. I've had 2 ops that have limited my movement, so I tend to eat less anyway. Mind you, having had a bad 18 months or so, I don't mind having treats from time to time.
To me, this is middle ground. Ketagenics is about inducing ketosis where the body digests dietary fats for energy, rather than the easy option of breaking down carbs. If the fat intake isn't enough, the body then begins digesting its' own fat., hence the use as a weight loss diet. It takes quite a while to enter ketosis, I'm not sure it's a very natural state. And, as I said, it gets very expensive buying coconut fat, cream, cheese, and twice the amount of meat protein. Avocado oil is sublime though
. Mainly protein and green veg. Not much fruit, and hardly any sugar. If I do get the urge for porridge or something then I just go with it. I think your body often knows what it requires.Part of this is due to hip problems brought about by the steroids involved during chemo. I've had 2 ops that have limited my movement, so I tend to eat less anyway. Mind you, having had a bad 18 months or so, I don't mind having treats from time to time.
To me, this is middle ground. Ketagenics is about inducing ketosis where the body digests dietary fats for energy, rather than the easy option of breaking down carbs. If the fat intake isn't enough, the body then begins digesting its' own fat., hence the use as a weight loss diet. It takes quite a while to enter ketosis, I'm not sure it's a very natural state. And, as I said, it gets very expensive buying coconut fat, cream, cheese, and twice the amount of meat protein. Avocado oil is sublime though
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Cancer sucks . . . (currently awaiting my mri appointment).
I've not read of a link between sugar and cancer, but who knows? Bodies are very very complex.
The ketogenic diet might well suit some people and not others. Our genetics vary so much; my family has a terrible history of early heart and circulatory system disease, I avoid saturated fats now and am in better condition as a result. That might not be the best approach for someone else.
As for the pain of kidney stones; imagine something so painful you would claw your own face off to make it stop, then make that pain utterly unrelenting for hours. That's kidney stones. A nurse who has had children and kidney stones said she'd choose giving birth every time over kidney stones because there is no respite from the kidney stone pain.
I've not read of a link between sugar and cancer, but who knows? Bodies are very very complex.
The ketogenic diet might well suit some people and not others. Our genetics vary so much; my family has a terrible history of early heart and circulatory system disease, I avoid saturated fats now and am in better condition as a result. That might not be the best approach for someone else.
As for the pain of kidney stones; imagine something so painful you would claw your own face off to make it stop, then make that pain utterly unrelenting for hours. That's kidney stones. A nurse who has had children and kidney stones said she'd choose giving birth every time over kidney stones because there is no respite from the kidney stone pain.
The Atkins diet like all extreme and unbalanced regimes are all ultimately designed to fail. The best diet scientifically speaking is the one you rarely hear about because no one can make any money out of it and that is the Stew diet. Make a giant pot of stew made with primarily veg such as carrots and Swedes plus lesser amounts of more starchy veg and topped off with chicken thighs and a couple of pints of stock. Cook for about four hours remove the meat and debone then stir the meat back in. A good stew will provide pretty much all you need nutrition wise and is ready to hand when you want it. If you get bored of the flavour just change what flavourings you use. The body loves liquidy food and it really fills you up for the longest amount of time.
Works well for weight loss for many people. May have useful therepeutic effects for certain complaints although trials data is currently not conclusive on most.
Things like the paleo diet and blood group diets are just pseudo-science and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that they have any meaning at all. The diet during paleolithic times would have depended entirely on what was available locally so is impossible to define beyond saying that it was probably relatively light on carbohydrates, although as we all know there are plants out there which provide useful amounts of starches and sugars.
It's reckoned to be advisable to drink plenty of non-alcoholic liquids although that doesn't have to be water.
Things like the paleo diet and blood group diets are just pseudo-science and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that they have any meaning at all. The diet during paleolithic times would have depended entirely on what was available locally so is impossible to define beyond saying that it was probably relatively light on carbohydrates, although as we all know there are plants out there which provide useful amounts of starches and sugars.
It's reckoned to be advisable to drink plenty of non-alcoholic liquids although that doesn't have to be water.
I think there is a major difference between 'paleo' diets and the ketogenic diets prescribed for epileptics and possibly cancer patients.
If you are going to follow a restricted diet, you'll have to start being very careful about exactly what you eat to ensure you are getting all required nutrients. I grew up in an area and era when people ate a lot of red meat - almost nothing else in fact - and died in their 60s of heart disease and cancer (lots of bowel cancer). Lamb chops for breakfast, steak for lunch, roast for evening meal. Token vegetables. These were farmers in Australia and the meat was free.
Gave them lots of energy and protein for a hard, physical life, but not so great for a long life.
Contrasted with some of the far northern scottish populations, where (I believe from limited reading) that diet was restricted, high proportion of oats, some red meat, some fish and seafood. Not a lot to eat in terms of total calories but seems that average lifespans were pretty good.
Maybe we just all eat too much.
If you are going to follow a restricted diet, you'll have to start being very careful about exactly what you eat to ensure you are getting all required nutrients. I grew up in an area and era when people ate a lot of red meat - almost nothing else in fact - and died in their 60s of heart disease and cancer (lots of bowel cancer). Lamb chops for breakfast, steak for lunch, roast for evening meal. Token vegetables. These were farmers in Australia and the meat was free.
Gave them lots of energy and protein for a hard, physical life, but not so great for a long life.
Contrasted with some of the far northern scottish populations, where (I believe from limited reading) that diet was restricted, high proportion of oats, some red meat, some fish and seafood. Not a lot to eat in terms of total calories but seems that average lifespans were pretty good.
Maybe we just all eat too much.
I have spent a couple of summers wandering around Sardinia, lovely place, the food is amazing, lots of red meat, lots of preserved meat, lots of veg, pasta, lots of fruit, plenty of wine. They all live into their eighties.
Attitude, if your enjoying life you will probably live longer and if not, at least you enjoyed yourself.
I would be curious to see any data folks have on this, my granny at age eight would supplement the family table with what she could find on the beach (Orkney) however I'd expect cows and sheep to more readily available on the mainland. During the 100 years war a Swedish prince praised his Scottish soldiers but lamented how expensive they were to feed, each needing many kilograms of beef, mutton and butter per man, per day.
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Bad breath, crash diet, amd rabbit starvation is a myth anyway, your body soon adapts, no vitamins, bad skin etc. If you do go on it make sure you eat lean meat, eating the fat will shorten your life remarkably.
Talking of rabbits, the person who told us animal fat was bad for us tested his theory on a notorious carnivore, the rabbit, which isn't equipped for dealing with meat proetine consumption. Vegitable oil may well be worse than limited animal fat.
Talking of rabbits, the person who told us animal fat was bad for us tested his theory on a notorious carnivore, the rabbit, which isn't equipped for dealing with meat proetine consumption. Vegitable oil may well be worse than limited animal fat.
Well not agreeing with your statement but as the Keto diet calls for an initial consumption of around 80% intake from Fat I can't see you being a fan. Do you have a direct link for your statement concerning "eating Fat shortening your life remarkably"?
As I've asked before , show your workings.
I find myself however agreeing with your on the points regarding Veg oil.
Well I have just had a quick online perusal of ketogenic diets and could find no proper scientific trials to back up its claims just lots of people touting it and just as many debunking it. My gut instinct is that it is something to stay clear of. I will stick to my stew diet. I can't see how eating loads of fresh fruit and vegetables and a small amount of white meat can be an inferior way to lose weight than a ketogenic diet
I am beyond dubious of the cancer stopping properties of the ketogenic diet; the fellow pushing that is claiming miracles....how come it's not make him beatified ? money ? who's making the money though. I am a hearty sceptic....look for the agenda behind the propaganda.....someone's pushing, and a lot of people are jumping on a moneymaking bandwagon, again.
Those who do best with cancer are those who manage to maintain an appetite too. What they eat ?
frankly having now nursed three family members with the damned disease I can tell you that getting any food into them is a enormous success at times.
If they wanted high fat, then I'd move heaven and hell to get it for them, but they don't want that, they cannot digest that; they want the easy eating stuff, the comfort foods of childhood; soup, bread and butter, mashed vegetables and stewed fruits. The meat eaters want broth and they want gravy, and the jelly from ham and chicken, the potted houghs, etc.,
They all end up with ulcerated mouths from the treatment, heavy fats run through their damaged guts and make life that is beyond miserable even worse. 80% fat ? Aye, that'll be right
It's an interesting topic, but I simply feel that too much is claimed on too little solid research; especially on the cancer beating.
I would love it to be right, I really would, for I have one family member suffering just now, and another one undergoing tests just in the last few days; it's a very sore and touchy subject at present.
Personally I think that Jason has it right re diet. Variety, portion control, activity.
We are the cooking ape; we can make virtually anything palatable and digestible by cooking it. That has allowed our species to thrive way beyond anything a small ape would otherwise have managed.
We don't have carnivore teeth or guts, we don't have purely plant eaters teeth or guts either though.
Cook either and we can eat any of it
If the ketogenic diet works to reduce weight, to alter the effects of epilepsy, to help someone thrive, burn lean and fit and able, and they can live with the restrictions; fair enough. It is most definitely not for everyone.
Let us know how you get on with it ? how you feel after months on it ?
Best of luck with it
M
Those who do best with cancer are those who manage to maintain an appetite too. What they eat ?
frankly having now nursed three family members with the damned disease I can tell you that getting any food into them is a enormous success at times. If they wanted high fat, then I'd move heaven and hell to get it for them, but they don't want that, they cannot digest that; they want the easy eating stuff, the comfort foods of childhood; soup, bread and butter, mashed vegetables and stewed fruits. The meat eaters want broth and they want gravy, and the jelly from ham and chicken, the potted houghs, etc.,
They all end up with ulcerated mouths from the treatment, heavy fats run through their damaged guts and make life that is beyond miserable even worse. 80% fat ? Aye, that'll be right
It's an interesting topic, but I simply feel that too much is claimed on too little solid research; especially on the cancer beating.
I would love it to be right, I really would, for I have one family member suffering just now, and another one undergoing tests just in the last few days; it's a very sore and touchy subject at present.
Personally I think that Jason has it right re diet. Variety, portion control, activity.
We are the cooking ape; we can make virtually anything palatable and digestible by cooking it. That has allowed our species to thrive way beyond anything a small ape would otherwise have managed.
We don't have carnivore teeth or guts, we don't have purely plant eaters teeth or guts either though.
Cook either and we can eat any of it
If the ketogenic diet works to reduce weight, to alter the effects of epilepsy, to help someone thrive, burn lean and fit and able, and they can live with the restrictions; fair enough. It is most definitely not for everyone.
Let us know how you get on with it ? how you feel after months on it ?
Best of luck with it
M
.....Those who do best with cancer are those who manage to maintain an appetite too. What they eat ?
If they wanted high fat, then I'd move heaven and hell to get it for them, but they don't want that, they cannot digest that; they want the easy eating stuff, the comfort foods of childhood; soup, bread and butter, mashed vegetables and stewed fruits. The meat eaters want broth and they want gravy, and the jelly from ham and chicken, the potted houghs, etc....
To be fair Mary, butter, gravy, etc. are high fat foods. That said, I'm as skeptical as you are and for the same reasons.
The merest smear of butter is hardly going to give them a high fat diet though, and we strain gravy here; the fat is taken off.
To quote Larousse,
"gravy...the pan deglazed with wine or a little stock....boiled until reduced to a slightly syrupy consistency. Gravy may also be thin but flavourful. "
M
To quote Larousse,
"gravy...the pan deglazed with wine or a little stock....boiled until reduced to a slightly syrupy consistency. Gravy may also be thin but flavourful. "
M
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