That made me chuckle inside, thinking how much more amusing it would if massacres and the like were referred to as 'nervous unload drills'........i have a sick mind and am so going to hell....
This miffed me off no end
- Thread starter Lister
- Start date
That made me chuckle inside, thinking how much more amusing it would if massacres and the like were referred to as 'nervous unload drills'........i have a sick mind and am so going to hell....
Just goes to prove, massacres have nothing to do with the Weapon and everything to do with the individual responsible.
We had one in the USA last year where they used a bow and arrow.
The one common thread of all of the mass killings in the USA has been the universal use by the shooter of serotonin reuptake inhibitor type drugs. However, that gets passed over by the media along with many other facts, such as how our crime rate since 1992 has fallen by half while gun ownership has increased by 40%.
Another little snippet that the media is constantly glossing over is the actual overall crime rate in the UK vs the USA.
What some of you may not know is that Americans are constantly having the media throwing the UK in our faces about how few people get shot with guns there. What they always ignore is the actual overall violent crime rate.
If you compare the FBI Uniform Crime Report from the USA and the UK's Home Office Statistical Bulletin, you find that in England and Wales, for 2011, there were 1361 violent crimes per 100,000 people while in the USA there were 386 violent crimes per 100,000 people. There were fewer murders per 100,000 in England and Wales, but the overall violent crime rate is 3.5x higher.
In 1992, in the USA there were 757 violent crimes including 9.3 murders per 100,000. In the USA in 2011, there were 386 violent crimes including 4.7 murders per 100,000. That is a reduction of violent crime in the country by about half during a time gun ownership was going up significantly. The majority of the crime in the USA is committed in a handful of urban areas and tend to be gang related.
Instead of using the UK as a model for the USA, they should use the USA as a model for the UK. If you adopted our gun laws, you would have an increase in the number of guns used in crime, but your overall crime rate would plunge.
Last edited:
The point on the disparity in overall crime is well made and, even allowing for different measurement and reporting criteria, I suspect there is truth in it.
I suspect someone would be less likely to commit a crime against me if I was the owner of something scarey and supported by the law to use it to defend myself.
I know I would.
My road is famous for speeding, once, on coming back from deer stalking I had my rifle case in my hand and a youth came speeding down the road. I looked at him, stared would be more accurate. Despite the fact I had a 3 1/2 foot firearm in my hand he drove at me and skidded as late as he thought he could, whilst showing me the birdy.
He knew there was nothing I could do, there is a mindset in this country that astonishes me.
I know I would.
My road is famous for speeding, once, on coming back from deer stalking I had my rifle case in my hand and a youth came speeding down the road. I looked at him, stared would be more accurate. Despite the fact I had a 3 1/2 foot firearm in my hand he drove at me and skidded as late as he thought he could, whilst showing me the birdy.
He knew there was nothing I could do, there is a mindset in this country that astonishes me.
There's a lot to be said for allowing for different measurement and reporting criteria. But I agree with you also on the point of the disparity. However i should point out that he didn't say "overall" crime. He said "violent" crime."
Well, he did SAY "overall" originally. But his comparisons later in the post were for "violent' crimes.
Last edited:
widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
People often (conveniently) overlook this. Take NYC and London, similar population density and a similar number of police officers. More police officers are attacked in London than NYC.
We most certainly have not got it right.
Its a good point and indeed what I meant.
It does amaze me the over simplifying of crime stats. "We've driven gun crime down"
"Well yes but the same number of people are being murdered"
"Ahh but gun crime has gone down"
...as if somehow, someone who is mad enough or desparate enough to kill will say "oh, I can't get a gun, so I won't use a knife, or a hammer, or an iron bar"
Weirdly, people who have decided to break the law, don't obey laws. I know its a revalation, but its true.
I think we're on the same sheet of music BR. That's one of the reasons I taught my daughter to shoot and walked her through the process of getting her CCW; because ay the end of the day, a restraining order is just a piece of paper.
Exactly. Having family in the US (my Mother's side is American) I am always impressed by the level of, and sense of, security in my families homes. They all have firearms, but it's just no big deal. We make a big deal of it here and sensationalise/exaggerate the dangers, as if it will turn into the Wild West or something?
I'm personally not scared of firearms. Certainly no more than I am a lunatic/drunk/druggy/criminal with a car, kitchen knife, pitch fork, pencil, home made explosive, sharpened stick, hammer, spade, candlestick, length of pipe or a rope. The difference between a firearm and all the rest, is that a firearm evens the score. A granny can defend herself against a body builder on coke, as can my wife, kids etc. The UK's policy of Self Defence, Minimal/Proportionate Force are a social/political cop out and they ensure the person with evil intent will always win and the victim will never have the real opportunity to protect themselves effectively. But, because it's there we feel its 'fair' somehow?
It's a shame we don't apportion any sense of personal responsibility in the UK. We've been 'nannied' so long I doubt it will ever change.
Just my 2p's worth.....
In Norway our gun culture is very, very different from the one in the US.
We do have a lot of guns. 5 million people and around 1,5 million guns. 500 000 of those are unregistered as shotguns required no registration prior to around 1990.
Anyway, I dare say that 99,99% of those guns where purchased for hunting, sport, or as collectors items. There is no culture for using firearms for self defense at all.
We did have the unfortunate incidence in 2011. But appart from that we usually have 2-3 murders a year where guns where involved. The other 30 murders where comitted with knives, axes, blunt objects, by strangling the victim etc.
We simply do not have a culture for using guns on people. Even when our soldiers kill Taliban in Afghanistan the press is going nuts.
And the low number of gun killings is not because you can expect there tio be a firearm in every house. (that gun is required to be empty, and stored in a gun safe bolted to the floor or wall, and weighing more than 300 kilos). But because we have a culture where we teach the kids that guns are for hunting and for sport....well until they reach military age, and we send them for a year in uniform where we tech them to aim at center mass because 1. it's the biggest target, and B causes the most psychological damage to the victimes friends....
But even then, the Norwegian gun culture is there to form the foundation for their attitudes....
Now foreign gangs are slowly changing this picture...but it still prevails.
We do have a lot of guns. 5 million people and around 1,5 million guns. 500 000 of those are unregistered as shotguns required no registration prior to around 1990.
Anyway, I dare say that 99,99% of those guns where purchased for hunting, sport, or as collectors items. There is no culture for using firearms for self defense at all.
We did have the unfortunate incidence in 2011. But appart from that we usually have 2-3 murders a year where guns where involved. The other 30 murders where comitted with knives, axes, blunt objects, by strangling the victim etc.
We simply do not have a culture for using guns on people. Even when our soldiers kill Taliban in Afghanistan the press is going nuts.
And the low number of gun killings is not because you can expect there tio be a firearm in every house. (that gun is required to be empty, and stored in a gun safe bolted to the floor or wall, and weighing more than 300 kilos). But because we have a culture where we teach the kids that guns are for hunting and for sport....well until they reach military age, and we send them for a year in uniform where we tech them to aim at center mass because 1. it's the biggest target, and B causes the most psychological damage to the victimes friends....
But even then, the Norwegian gun culture is there to form the foundation for their attitudes....
Now foreign gangs are slowly changing this picture...but it still prevails.
You're right. That is quite a difference. Doesn't really sound like a lot of guns (neither in total nor by comparison to the population) We have (at best guess) about 350,000,000 guns. Roughly enough for one per person, though it's estimated that they're all in the hands of about one in every four persons. Which I suppose might put our distributions at a similar level.
Last edited:
The lower number is probably because there is a limit to how many people are actually into hunting and/or shooting for sports. And it tend to be the same people. But it's quite a large percentage of the population. And traditionally guns are something men are interested in. So that cuts the potential gun owners in half.
And guns are still something men do here. But the ladies are going into the shooting clubs and going hunting more so that is changing. Sports shooting is the second largest sport in Norway.
But as I said. In our culture guns are for sport and hunting. Perhaps because in the last 200 years, we have had one war on our own soil, and even that is 70 years ago. And with 3 gun killngs a year there simply is no need. Not even the 2011 massacre has changed that attitude. But when that is the culture, you are going to have fewer murders where guns are involved too.
A couple of posts are getting close the politcal rants
Can I ask everyone to stay away from that area please.
Lets have a discussion by all means but you all know the rules about no politics
No having a go at anyone in particular btw
Thanks muchly
Mark
Can I ask everyone to stay away from that area please.
Lets have a discussion by all means but you all know the rules about no politics
No having a go at anyone in particular btw
Thanks muchly
Mark
Most of the image of American violence with guns and trigger happy Americans is simply a fictional creation of Hollywood. Unfortunately, too many people around the world seem to seriously think that image is real.
There are more murders every year in the USA with hammers than so called 'assault weapons'. Of the guns used in crime, rifles of all kinds only make up about 3.5% of them. More American teenagers die from playing American style tackle 'football' than they do from firearms. More toddlers in the USA die every year from drowning in buckets than they do from guns. You stand an exponentially greater chance of dying from a mistake made by your doctor than from a legally owned American firearm. The rate of accidental firearms deaths in the USA is plummeting at about the same rate as the violent crime (49% drop in violent crime over a 19 year period).
One of the things I have noticed about the USA which a lot of those from other countries don't understand is that the police here are not legally obligated to protect you. For example, in the Los Angeles riot in the 90's, the police simply pulled all of their men out of the area of the riot and left everyone to fend for themselves.
The police in the USA are only legally obligated to follow up on reported crime. This has been backed up by court rulings, and one of our residuals from being descended from 18th Century Britain is that case precedent is a major factor in our laws.
So, what that means is that your protection is ultimately up to you, and you alone. For example, the Sheriff of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, recently had public service announcements on local radio stations telling people that due to budget cuts they would have much longer response times. He urged everyone to arm themselves and to seek firearms training if they needed it.
About 2/3 of the murders in the USA are gangs, usually gang members killing rival gang members, mostly in the inner city. Many of the 'kids' reported to be killed by guns are actually gang members who just happen to be below the age of 18.
Most of the violence in America is in the inner cities, generally cities with a population of 250,000 or more people. America has about 280 cities of that size or larger.
America doesn't have a gun problem. America has a problem with failed social policies. These are not problems any amount of gun control will ever fix, and those urban areas with the most restrictive gun laws are typically the urban areas with the highest crime rates, like Chicago for example. Gun ownership has actually kept crime in check in the USA, not caused it.
There are more murders every year in the USA with hammers than so called 'assault weapons'. Of the guns used in crime, rifles of all kinds only make up about 3.5% of them. More American teenagers die from playing American style tackle 'football' than they do from firearms. More toddlers in the USA die every year from drowning in buckets than they do from guns. You stand an exponentially greater chance of dying from a mistake made by your doctor than from a legally owned American firearm. The rate of accidental firearms deaths in the USA is plummeting at about the same rate as the violent crime (49% drop in violent crime over a 19 year period).
One of the things I have noticed about the USA which a lot of those from other countries don't understand is that the police here are not legally obligated to protect you. For example, in the Los Angeles riot in the 90's, the police simply pulled all of their men out of the area of the riot and left everyone to fend for themselves.
The police in the USA are only legally obligated to follow up on reported crime. This has been backed up by court rulings, and one of our residuals from being descended from 18th Century Britain is that case precedent is a major factor in our laws.
So, what that means is that your protection is ultimately up to you, and you alone. For example, the Sheriff of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, recently had public service announcements on local radio stations telling people that due to budget cuts they would have much longer response times. He urged everyone to arm themselves and to seek firearms training if they needed it.
About 2/3 of the murders in the USA are gangs, usually gang members killing rival gang members, mostly in the inner city. Many of the 'kids' reported to be killed by guns are actually gang members who just happen to be below the age of 18.
Most of the violence in America is in the inner cities, generally cities with a population of 250,000 or more people. America has about 280 cities of that size or larger.
America doesn't have a gun problem. America has a problem with failed social policies. These are not problems any amount of gun control will ever fix, and those urban areas with the most restrictive gun laws are typically the urban areas with the highest crime rates, like Chicago for example. Gun ownership has actually kept crime in check in the USA, not caused it.
Last edited:
Nice to see a balanced, intelligent response on the subject! I was actually working in the US following the latest mass shooting, and had the misfortune of watching our very own showbiz journalist Piers Morgan hold a talk-show about the topic. He invited on several experts in the field, then basically shouted them down with his own ranting invective against guns - all fake emotion and no balanced facts.
I do remember seeing some stats somewhere on the gun crime figures with gang-on-gang shooting, suicides and genuine self-defense deaths removed - it was very low indeed....
I do remember seeing some stats somewhere on the gun crime figures with gang-on-gang shooting, suicides and genuine self-defense deaths removed - it was very low indeed....
Similar threads
