This miffed me off no end

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RonW

Native
Nov 29, 2010
1,575
121
Dalarna Sweden
Most of the image of American violence with guns and trigger happy Americans is simply a fictional creation of Hollywood. Unfortunately, too many people around the world seem to seriously think that image is real.

It isn't just Hollywood. The US military and it's foreign adventures sustain that image. But I guess it's just the media brushing that up too? It is the image I have been seeing over and over again; US troops engaged in conflict in who knows what corner of the world.

One of the things I have noticed about the USA which a lot of foreigners don't understand is that the police here are not legally obligated to protect you. For example, in the Los Angeles riot in the 90's, the police simply pulled all of their men out of the area of the riot and left everyone to fend for themselves.

The police in the USA are only legally obligated to follow up on reported crime. This has been backed up by court rulings, and one of our residuals from being descended from 18th Century Britain is that case precedent is a major factor in our laws.

So, what that means is that your protection is ultimately up to you, and you alone. For example, the Sheriff of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, recently had public service announcements on local radio stations telling people that due to budget cuts they would have much longer response times. He urged everyone to arm themselves and to seek firearms training if they needed it.

I had absolutely no idea! Allthough unbelievable or incomprehensible (as a Dutch ex-policeofficer myself) it does put things in a whole new perspective for me. Now I'm starting to understand why many are armed. I would be myself, no doubt.
So that's what the second amendment is all about then; selfdefense?


America doesn't have a gun problem. America has a problem with failed social policies. These are not problems any amount of gun control will ever fix, and those urban areas with the most restrictive gun laws are typically the urban areas with the highest crime rates, like Chicago for example. Gun ownership has actually kept crime in check in the USA, not caused it.

So basically it is a flawed (or maybe even made up) image the media is presenting? I have to be honest; they had me fooled. I thought the general US society was one dominated by violence (of any sort) and fear.
Question remains who would benefit of such a distorted image, but that's a completely new discussion, I guess.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
.....And traditionally guns are something men are interested in. So that cuts the potential gun owners in half.

And guns are still something men do here. But the ladies are going into the shooting clubs and going hunting more so that is changing. Sports shooting is the second largest sport in Norway.

But as I said. In our culture guns are for sport and hunting. Perhaps because in the last 200 years, we have had one war on our own soil, and even that is 70 years ago.....

I really have no idea where the shooting sports rank over here in comparison to other sports. But that aside, it would seem we have more in common than we do differences.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
....I had absolutely no idea! Allthough unbelievable or incomprehensible (as a Dutch ex-policeofficer myself) it does put things in a whole new perspective for me. Now I'm starting to understand why many are armed. I would be myself, no doubt.
So that's what the second amendment is all about then; selfdefense?......

Mrostov's statement about the police duty to protect is true but a bit misleading. The case law he refers to was a discision where the court threw out a lawsuit from a crime victim that had sued the authorities for failing to PREVENT the crime. The court's actual ruling (paraphrased) was that the police do not have a duty to ABSOLUTELY protect each and every individual. Rather their duty is to protect the public in general and deter crime by general patrols and arrest of those they catch. In short, that means that while I can expect reasonable patrols in my neighborhood, I have no right to expect a personal police bodyguard 24 hours every day.

All that said, YES. Part of the reason for the 2nd ammendment was/is for self defense. That was the most recent ruling of the Supreme Court in Heller v Washington.
 
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Ed Edwards

Full Member
Dec 17, 2012
380
0
Kent/London
I thought the Second Amendment was something to do with US Citizens being able to defend themselves against a tyrannical or unjust state? I need to re-read.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
.....So basically it is a flawed (or maybe even made up) image the media is presenting? I have to be honest; they had me fooled. I thought the general US society was one dominated by violence (of any sort) and fear.
Question remains who would benefit of such a distorted image, but that's a completely new discussion, I guess.

You ask "....who would benefit from such a distorted image...." Well if we leave politics out as we're required to the answer becomes fairly obvious. The media itself benefits. Sensational headlines sell stories and equal big profits.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I thought the Second Amendment was something to do with US Citizens being able to defend themselves against a tyrannical or unjust state? I need to re-read.

That's one interpretation but not only is it pushing the ban on politics here, it's never been stated either way in a court case. Self defense on the other hand was recently quoted in the case I referenced.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Note to the moderators: While this post may be pushing the edges a tad, this isn't intended to be a political rant, just an attempt to help those outside the USA understand it a bit better and answer some questions that were asked.

It isn't just Hollywood. The US military and it's foreign adventures sustain that image. But I guess it's just the media brushing that up too? It is the image I have been seeing over and over again; US troops engaged in conflict in who knows what corner of the world.

That isn't the USA internally, that is war outside the USA. In the American perspective that is the difference between night and day.

What you are seeing is simply military adventurism outside the USA by a US Federal Government running amok which many, if not most in the USA are getting increasingly disgusted with. The constant propaganda that 'those people' want to kill us simply because we are who we are is wearing thin. By America's own principles upon which it was founded, our country is not supposed to be doing any of these things.

For financial reasons, the US government's military adventurism will probably be seriously curtailed in about 2 or 3 years when the US economy finally implodes. War, American style, is extremely expensive. The adventure in Iraq alone cost so much money that it could have bought every American family a new house and every adult who wanted one could have gotten a free master's degree from a decent university.

I had absolutely no idea! Allthough unbelievable or incomprehensible (as a Dutch ex-policeofficer myself) it does put things in a whole new perspective for me. Now I'm starting to understand why many are armed. I would be myself, no doubt.
So that's what the second amendment is all about then; selfdefense?

No, self-defense was considered to simply be a God given right as natural as breathing. That is how most Americans still view it. The true meaning of the Second Amendment in the US Constitution is about one thing. It is about the government not having a monopoly on the use of force.

Regardless of how many weapons of mass destruction a government has at it's disposal, no government can inflict absolute tyranny upon it's own people when they are armed. This is because against their own people, things like nuclear weapons are useless. So, governments who desire to control people in ways the people do not want inevitably have to resort to terror with thugs. With an armed population, governments run out of thugs very rapidly when they push too hard. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn also talked about this in his book, "The Gulag Archipelago".

As a safeguard against tyranny, firearms in the hands of the people are crucial. They are the insurance that a people can say, "No!" to their government. This is why the Founding Fathers enshrined the right to keep and bear arms in the US Constitution as the 2nd Amendment, because it guarantees the freedoms enshrined in the 1st Amendment. This isn't my interpretation, it is what the Founding Fathers of the USA said.

Here is what George Washington, the 1st US president and considered to be the 'Father of the Country', said about this:

“Government is not reason, nor eloquence. It is force. And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master.”

He also said:

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable... The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. When firearms go, all goes."

Thomas Jefferson, the 2nd US president and the man who drafted the Declaration of Independence, said:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

So basically it is a flawed (or maybe even made up) image the media is presenting? I have to be honest; they had me fooled. I thought the general US society was one dominated by violence (of any sort) and fear.
Question remains who would benefit of such a distorted image, but that's a completely new discussion, I guess.

The media in the USA is controlled by a very small handful of powerful people who act in unison like a cartel. Joseph Goebbels never had such power. There is a serious internal struggle going on for the control of the USA between diametrically opposed forces which may not be widely understood or even noticed by foreign observers.

Those in the USA who push foreign military adventurism are those who also want to curtail or outright destroy the Second Amendment, implement warrantless searches, suspend civil liberties, have indefinite detainment without charges, legalize torture, and a whole bunch of other things. Many of these things are being implemented right now or in the process of preparing to do so. Those who control the mainstream media in the USA are in this camp.

The strongest forces fighting for the Second Amendment are also those who want to end foreign military adventurism, chop the Federal government to a fraction of what it is, and close down every military base not on American soil, bringing all of the troops home.

This internal power struggle has gotten to the point where many Americans are rightly worried that another armed civil war in America might be a reality in the near future. That is one of the biggest reasons why the shelves at retailers across the USA have been stripped of guns and ammo lately.
 
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cave_dweller

Nomad
Apr 9, 2010
296
1
Vale of Glamorgan
What some of you may not know is that Americans are constantly having the media throwing the UK in our faces about how few people get shot with guns there. What they always ignore is the actual overall violent crime rate.

It's worth pointing out though that the definitions of 'violent crime' are very different in the USA than they are in the UK. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and 'forcible rapes'. I actually found it quite difficult to compare 'like with like' between the two countries because of the different accounting.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
It's worth pointing out though that the definitions of 'violent crime' are very different in the USA than they are in the UK. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and 'forcible rapes'. I actually found it quite difficult to compare 'like with like' between the two countries because of the different accounting.

Actually no. The "violent crimes" are the same one here. Don't know where you got that mis-info. (or at least they were back when I still filled out the reports to be sent to the NCIC)
 

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