also as for lerning from mistakes i totaly agree with you but as my tutors always saying at college with chainsaws 'you only lern once' one mistake could mean you never walk properly again or cost you your life
pete
pete
this is why amateurs shouldn't be alowed chainsaws...
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Hi Pete. I really don't think that was the idea, from anyone, certainly not from me
But I have strong view on this subject, like many others here!!I agree, there are people who should be let loose with anything, probably not even a hair curler! But I don't think banning is the solution somehow. We all have to learn from our mistakes in the end, that's about the only way, I believe, to really remember what you shouldn't do...
If you fall off the tree, you'll remember it hurts and you try not to do it next time you climb a tree; if you poke a cat, it will end up scratching you, and so on.
I thought you needed a certificate to buy a top handled chainsaw? Unless my mate (who is an arb) was talking rubbish, gun's are responsible for a lot more death's im sure.
Banning isn't the answer, education is. Unfortunately, society seems to be becoming a bit simple on the whole, of course there are exceptions. It would be very unfortunate for somebody to maim themselves with a chainsaw as they will get incapacity benefits and be another drain on "the pot". Better they do themselves outright instead!
If people are serious about this nanny state rubbish then they should ban cigarettes, and alcohol - neither are necessary in this modern New(speak) utopia and between them they cause far more deaths than chainsaws, nail guns and real guns put together. Sure, some can enjoy them responsibly but others cannot. I venture to suggest that passive smoking and alcohol contributions to violence, vehicle related deaths and health issues are far more widespread than all the rest.
However this isn't really about saving lives is it? Not really. Its about chipping away at peoples freedom to do what they choose by picking on what other people do and choosing not not to let them becasue in some way the person criticising wants to take charge of someone elses life because they know better.
Sure they may kill themselves. So might the guy buying a pack of Bensons in the queue in the supermarket - or the guy buying a bottle of wine. These things kill many, many more people every year. So if its really about addressing things that people abuse with life threatening consequences, any logical minded person will tackle those first and leave the other stuff till later. So use these things responsibly - as some use alchol responsibly - some don't. But lets tackle the big problems first.
Red
However this isn't really about saving lives is it? Not really. Its about chipping away at peoples freedom to do what they choose by picking on what other people do and choosing not not to let them becasue in some way the person criticising wants to take charge of someone elses life because they know better.
Sure they may kill themselves. So might the guy buying a pack of Bensons in the queue in the supermarket - or the guy buying a bottle of wine. These things kill many, many more people every year. So if its really about addressing things that people abuse with life threatening consequences, any logical minded person will tackle those first and leave the other stuff till later. So use these things responsibly - as some use alchol responsibly - some don't. But lets tackle the big problems first.
Red
i think its a legal requirement and most dealers wont sell them to the public and some dealers on the internet ask for a copy of your certificate but others just dont care or say you should be qualified but dont ask for proof
That's a pretty spot on post Red. You've highlighted the major concern we should all have, the erosion of our civil liberties.
tbh i dont think it takes away any freedoms, you have to lern and pay for a test to get a driveing licence just less people use chainsaws. is having to have a driving licence takeing away your freedom?
pete
pete
Why not need a rioja licence then?
Cars require road users to co-operate and their uncontrolled use has impacts beyond that of the user. I venture to suggest that its exceptionally unlikely that a chanisaw will hurt anyone but the user. Frankly, its no-ones job to dictate what a person does that hurts no-one but themselves.
Why isn't there a licence for lager? Far more people are killed by the effects and side effects of lager than are by chainsaws. If we really want to save lives, there should be a licence to prove that a person is using alcohol sensibly and responsibly.
If a person want to use a chainsaw (other than in a professional capacity) its no-ones business but their own unless what they are doing with it threatens the safety of another.
If I think someone is drinking too much, or smoking too much, have I the right to interfere? Same applies to using tools. I might, as a concerned friend, have a quiet word. However its their life and their choice.
Red
Cars require road users to co-operate and their uncontrolled use has impacts beyond that of the user. I venture to suggest that its exceptionally unlikely that a chanisaw will hurt anyone but the user. Frankly, its no-ones job to dictate what a person does that hurts no-one but themselves.
Why isn't there a licence for lager? Far more people are killed by the effects and side effects of lager than are by chainsaws. If we really want to save lives, there should be a licence to prove that a person is using alcohol sensibly and responsibly.
If a person want to use a chainsaw (other than in a professional capacity) its no-ones business but their own unless what they are doing with it threatens the safety of another.
If I think someone is drinking too much, or smoking too much, have I the right to interfere? Same applies to using tools. I might, as a concerned friend, have a quiet word. However its their life and their choice.
Red
You're correct - you need to produce your certificate or card to show that you have passed NPTC units for using a saw from a rope and harness to buy or rent a top handled saw, wheras you can buy a groundsaw without having to show certification. Most tool hire companies now insist that you show a certificate if you rent any chainsaw. I guess that way it stops inexperienced people from renting a chainsaw 'just the once' to take a tree down in their garden. Not really sure how accidents involving chainsaws can be compared to gun related deaths though, unless you are talking about shooting accidents.
Hi Pete, i have quoted you there because i happened to be watching a guy do exactly the same thing from my window last week, now the thing is that that person worked for a very well respected and long established local buisness with all the tickets and insurance you could ever dream of and yet he still climbed up a ladder propped poorly against slender limbs of a tree and proceded to crack on with no PPE what so ever, should we ban amateurs, proffesional's or chainsaws? or just keep our fingers crossed for people who push there luck?.
Lou
The first video looked like a set up to me. To fell a tree that size next to houses without knowing what you are doing would be total madness (but then I guess I have seen some pretty crazy tree felling on YouTube )
Somebody asked about accident statistics from chainsaw use. I don't have any hard and fast statistics but in a book I was reading called "Chainsaw Operator's Manual" (an Australian publication) it says that in professional use (in Australia) chainsaw fatalities gradually dropped to zero after health and safety legislation was brought in. In 2000-2001 there was a sudden jump and seven fatalities were recorded. I've no idea why that was.
)Somebody asked about accident statistics from chainsaw use. I don't have any hard and fast statistics but in a book I was reading called "Chainsaw Operator's Manual" (an Australian publication) it says that in professional use (in Australia) chainsaw fatalities gradually dropped to zero after health and safety legislation was brought in. In 2000-2001 there was a sudden jump and seven fatalities were recorded. I've no idea why that was.
Interesting - just for fun I goggled similar statistics
in 1998 19,000 deaths were due in Australia to tobacco.
So....if anyone cares about promoting safety - ban cigarettes
Oh and another 2,000 were alcohol related
Source:
http://www.aihw.gov.au/drugs/population/index.cfm
So if anyone wants to worry about health of the poor people who can't regulate their own lives, there is a place to start. If people avoid the real killers because they touch on their own desires to be allowed to do the things they like without interference from the state (i.e. needing a Swan lager licence) then I think I rest my case - meddle not in others lives lest your life be meddled with
Red
in 1998 19,000 deaths were due in Australia to tobacco.
So....if anyone cares about promoting safety - ban cigarettes
Oh and another 2,000 were alcohol related
Source:
http://www.aihw.gov.au/drugs/population/index.cfm
So if anyone wants to worry about health of the poor people who can't regulate their own lives, there is a place to start. If people avoid the real killers because they touch on their own desires to be allowed to do the things they like without interference from the state (i.e. needing a Swan lager licence) then I think I rest my case - meddle not in others lives lest your life be meddled with
Red
Eric_Methven
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
A chainsaw is just like any other power tool - dangerous in untrained hands. What puts most people off getting training though is the cost for training and assessment. When I did mine it was about £400.
You won't get public liability insurance though if you don't have the appropriate qualification, but that's for people who intend doing work for a third party.
I was asked by a little old lady once if I would come and fell a tree in her garden. I duly went and had a look only to find a very large silver birch about ten feet from the house, leaning right over towards the house and extending some twenty feet above the roof.
I told her a team of arborists would be needed for the job as it would need to be taken down a bit at a time, from the top. She asked how much that would cost and I advised her to contact a tree surgeon as I couldn't tackle it.
Anyway, the quote from the tree surgeon must have been hefty because she persuaded her grandson to drop it - which he duly did - right onto the house, destroying the roof and caving in one wall completely.
She contacted her insurance company and they wanted the details of the person who felled the tree. She told them it was her grandson and when they found out he wasn't qualified or insured even, they refused to pay out.
Proper training always pays off, not just in safely using the tool, but correctly felling trees too.
Eric
You won't get public liability insurance though if you don't have the appropriate qualification, but that's for people who intend doing work for a third party.
I was asked by a little old lady once if I would come and fell a tree in her garden. I duly went and had a look only to find a very large silver birch about ten feet from the house, leaning right over towards the house and extending some twenty feet above the roof.
I told her a team of arborists would be needed for the job as it would need to be taken down a bit at a time, from the top. She asked how much that would cost and I advised her to contact a tree surgeon as I couldn't tackle it.
Anyway, the quote from the tree surgeon must have been hefty because she persuaded her grandson to drop it - which he duly did - right onto the house, destroying the roof and caving in one wall completely.
She contacted her insurance company and they wanted the details of the person who felled the tree. She told them it was her grandson and when they found out he wasn't qualified or insured even, they refused to pay out.
Proper training always pays off, not just in safely using the tool, but correctly felling trees too.
Eric
couldn't agree more Red, by the way where do you get those riojca licenses, best get a cabernet and a merlot whilst i'm there, sod it can i just get a full one?
Your mate is quite correct. Top handle chainsaws are far more dangerous than rear handle ones and if they kickback you have a lot less control. Regs were brought in so that only trained arborists could buy them "New"...But I'm sure there have been a few go on car boot sales and evilbay etc
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Interesting the way this thread has gone. I enjoy Reds comments about individual freedom and think there are some parallels between chainsaw use and smoking or drinking there are some differences too.
I think it is important to know if the risk is known to the user when they take the choice. That has certainly been crucial in tobacco law cases. I think we all know that the situation with the law over alcohol and tobacco are historical and that if they came onto the market today both would be significantly more restricted. As a taxpayer I pick up the very significant bill from folks utilising their free choice to smoke.
"In the United Kingdom, the treatment of smoking related disease has been estimated to cost the NHS £1.4bn-£1.5bn a year (about 0.16% of the gross domestic product)including £127m to treat lung cancer alone."
In my village of 350 people there are two serious alcoholics that will die within the next few years and have already cost the NHS more than I will earn in my lifetime, that is one end of the problem scale of alcohol but it can have significant negative effects on society without going so far. If used in moderation it can also have positive effects. I have experienced cultures with prohibition as well as very high taxes to make alcohol economically difficult to over consume. I am not sure what the answer is. Like Red I tend away from prohibition though I am in favour of education and making antisocial behavior socially unacceptable (as has been achieved to a great extent with drink driving)
Coming back to the chain saw. I agree that the most likely injured party will be the user and that they should be free to take a risk, but I think it is important that they know the risk they are taking, This is exactly why top handled saws are not freely available since they have a high risk factor that is not immediately obvious, most 2 handed saws the risks are more obvious. All in all I think the current situation is probably a good balance of freedom and responsibility.
I think it is important to know if the risk is known to the user when they take the choice. That has certainly been crucial in tobacco law cases. I think we all know that the situation with the law over alcohol and tobacco are historical and that if they came onto the market today both would be significantly more restricted. As a taxpayer I pick up the very significant bill from folks utilising their free choice to smoke.
"In the United Kingdom, the treatment of smoking related disease has been estimated to cost the NHS £1.4bn-£1.5bn a year (about 0.16% of the gross domestic product)including £127m to treat lung cancer alone."
In my village of 350 people there are two serious alcoholics that will die within the next few years and have already cost the NHS more than I will earn in my lifetime, that is one end of the problem scale of alcohol but it can have significant negative effects on society without going so far. If used in moderation it can also have positive effects. I have experienced cultures with prohibition as well as very high taxes to make alcohol economically difficult to over consume. I am not sure what the answer is. Like Red I tend away from prohibition though I am in favour of education and making antisocial behavior socially unacceptable (as has been achieved to a great extent with drink driving)
Coming back to the chain saw. I agree that the most likely injured party will be the user and that they should be free to take a risk, but I think it is important that they know the risk they are taking, This is exactly why top handled saws are not freely available since they have a high risk factor that is not immediately obvious, most 2 handed saws the risks are more obvious. All in all I think the current situation is probably a good balance of freedom and responsibility.
I cycle to work every day and I must admit that only about 30% of people I see are wearing helmets. Some people are just totally oblivious to how fragile a human body actually is..
Seems totally stupid - it's like wearing a seatbelt. Just common sense and a no-brainer.
Seems totally stupid - it's like wearing a seatbelt. Just common sense and a no-brainer.
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