The banning of knives!!

[Tantalus]

Martyns post clearly says

(4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

(a) for use at work;

I suspect police officers have ample justification within this clause

Helping at the scene of an accident, investigating behind locked doors, etc.

Tant

 

[Tantalus]

Or you could take to wearing a kilt, there is no absolute definition of what a skean dhubh should look like , though you might find it difficult to walk with a kukri in your sock

Tant

 

[tenbears10]

I spoke to my mate who is a policeman in central London about this not so long ago. It came up when I took my sak out of my pocket. He was concerned that I should be carrying it with me all day. I pointed out the it was sub 3 inch and non locking and therefore legal. He was very quick to point out that a if a screwdriver and be classed as an offensive weapon then a sak certainly can no matter what length and mechanism. His advice was to be careful. He is my best mate and staying for the weekend so I did not want to get into the politics of knife licencing which I'm sure we would disagree on but the outcome was that if you carry even a small penknife all the time then there may come a time when you are in the pub on the way home from work or at lunchtime on the weekend and the police would not take kindly to you having an even legal knife in that situation.

The fact is that it very much comes down to each policemans interpretation. I'm sure no one would think twice in the countryside if you have a sak in your pocket. But it varies greatly from place to place.

Bill

 

[Tantalus]

policemans' interpretation only goes so far

Ultimately it is for the courts to decide whether to prosecute or not

Any policeman who makes arrests that are continually not prosecuted on the grounds that there was in fact no offence committed is in for a hard time with his superiors

Please remember that carrying a sub 3 inch slipjoint (eg SAK ) is not an offence, taking it out and waving it around in a threatening manner, most certainly is

If you have a pocket full of stolen mobile phones and a lock knife you are in for the high jump

If you have a bag of fresh mushrooms and a lock knife and are quietly walking home after a morning in the woods, you are hardly likely to be searched, and even if you are searched you can prove that you were in the woods foraging. Should be no problem unless you really aggravate the police.

Tant

 

[Adi007]

Sensible post Tant! I think you sum it up well!

 

[tenbears10]

I agree Tant. It just worries me that we will be banned from carrying knives because of what criminals do and it will make no difference to the criminals only the law abiding people like us.

You wait until Labour need some votes before the next election I bet they will try at least to licence knives or ban them completely and the Sun reading public will be all in favour.

Bill

 

[Squidders]

I think that if the government are going to go off on one they should bring in some sort of license... this would be useful for things like fixed blades also and would eliminate any blagging.

Carrying your knife to work because that's where you need it is not a good excuse because they can just ask why you don't leave it there. and any high value you put on the blade is no real argument as people leave laptops at work

I'm wondering about locking blades though... I wonder if anyone can assist on this and shout at me if this is off topic too far.

Most locking blades clip open when you pull the blade out and you have to push/pull something to unlock it... I was thinking about opinel blades... they require an action to lock the blade in the first place... technically, by jamming something in any non locking knife you have a locking knife... is there a diference? and what's legal?

 

[Tantalus]

there is a ton of this type of discussion over on British Blades under the Blades, Britain & the Law... section

but if you read Martyns post i think it is pretty clear

3 For a knife to be a folding pocket-knife within the meaning of this section, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A lock-knife, which required a further process, namely activating a trigger mechanism to fold the blade back into the handle, was held not to be a folding pocket-knife (Harris v DPP [1993] 1 All ER 562); followed in R v Deegan [1998] Crim LR 562,[1998] 2 Cr App Rep 121. The section applies to articles which have a blade or are sharply pointed, falling into the same broad category as a knife or sharply pointed instrument;

my highlight on the "at all times"

hope this helps

i know it is a minefield but ignorance of the law is not an excuse that is valid in court

Tant

 

[Squidders]

Cheers Tant... I guess I selectively misread that bit... damn brain.

Why oh why do we as a population put up with this kind of mothering from the state? I'm not going to be able to carry a sharp pencil soon

 

[Realgar]

There was disturbing talk on something the other night - "Inside out" I think about the availability of knives over the net without age checks. Granted when they were looking at the 'fantasy knives' the guy had a valid point in saying they didn't need to be supplied sharp but he was also claiming that noone could have a valid reason for owning a machete or bill hook.

Someone at work is a magstrate, she's borrow my penknife a few times and oddly wasn't bothered by the locking opinel but had a fit when I passed her a budding knife once - the blade was only 2inch but of course the same of thsoe things makes them look a little, well vicious. She rekoned I'd never get away with it if I was caught with that one in my pocket.

I have gotten away with carrying a large double edged hunting knife quite openly on my belt - I was on my way back from a battle reenactment thing and wearing nothing but a couple of skins. I'd actualy stopped to pet one of the police horse and rider told me she had no problem with the knife but this was a rough area of town and I might want to rethink how I carried it.
I've been stopped once aside from that and checked - they'd had reports of a break in and I matched the description, the opinel was found, opened and handed back with no trouble. Be polite, be cooperative and about all don't go waving a blade around and the police are pretty tolerant.
Realgar

 

[Tantalus]

ya are very welcome mate

if i can help i usually try to

there is no such thing as a stupid question

Tant

 

[mick]

personaly i couldn't care about this campaign. by the sounds of it their trying to raise paper sales/ put a bit of pressure on a political group. end of the day i don't think it will make any difference.

 

[Great Pebble]

I noticed there was an article in our local evening paper this week concerning a "consignment of weapons" intercepted by customs at Belfast International.

Initially I thought "guns 'n' explosives" but it turns out that the contents of the consignment were lock knives, hunting knives and machetes.

Illegal weapons?

 

[Andy]

Illegal weapons?

Only in the sense that they were been imported illegaly (I think)

 

[maddave]

When you criminalise knives, only criminals will carry knives. :?:

 

[Stew]

When you criminalise knives, only criminals will carry knives. :?:

Agreed and the point is they still will carry knives!!
Banning the carrying of knives isn't going to help cut down on crime.

 

[arctic hobo]

Exactly!! Those who carry knives with the intent of killing people are certainly not going to be put off by a ban, as the consequences for murder will be much more severe than those for carrying a knife. Only the decent folks like us Bushcrafters will be stopped from carrying one... it's counter intuitive. Here's to hoping it won't affect me (I always carry a Swiss Army knife).

 

[Tantalus]

personally i think a knife is an essential tool and not a weapon

as long as i continue to treat it like a tool and respect it as such i need have no fear that carrying a knife will be a crime

i dont need a lock knife to go to tescos

i dont need a bowie to go to the bank

and i NEVER carry a knife for self defence

if i am asked to justify the knife in my pocket or on my belt i can do so

sadly in todays society it means looking into what the law says on these matters

but the law is there to protect me as well so i guess i can tolerate having to take my lock knife out my pocket and swap it for a slipjoint for a day in the town

Tant

 

[Martyn]

I spoke to my mate who is a policeman in central London about this not so long ago. It came up when I took my sak out of my pocket. He was concerned that I should be carrying it with me all day. I pointed out the it was sub 3 inch and non locking and therefore legal. He was very quick to point out that a if a screwdriver and be classed as an offensive weapon then a sak certainly can no matter what length and mechanism.

A ballpoint pen is an offensive weapon if you attack someone with it.

However, a ballpoint pen is most definitely NOT illegal to carry with you all day, wherever you like, just because.

A SAK is not an offensive weapon, unless you display intent to use it as such.

You can carry any knife, so long as it is readily foldable (does not lock) and the blade is under 3" long. You do not have to justify this to a policeman. You do not have to give a reason for having one, you are not obliged or required by law to explain it in any way. A police officer may ask you to explain it, and for an easy life, you may wish to volunteer an answer, but that's up to you. You ARE NOT commiting any offence by carrying a folding pocket knife, that does not lock, with a blade under 3" long. Your right to carry such, for any reason whatoever, is explicitly permitted in law by the 1988 criminal justice act.

The key factor is how you handle the knife. Threaten someone and it instantly becomes an offensive weapon. Use it properly, an it's just a knife - just like a pen is just a pen when used for it's intended purpose.

 

[Martyn]

Carrying your knife to work because that's where you need it is not a good excuse because they can just ask why you don't leave it there. and any high value you put on the blade is no real argument as people leave laptops at work

Correct, that reason only works while you're at work. You could probably sucessfully argue a simple and direct transport to and from work with the knife is reasonable, but I wouldn't bank on it. If you need it for work, and you dont work weekends, you have no reason for having it at weekends.

Most locking blades clip open when you pull the blade out and you have to push/pull something to unlock it... I was thinking about opinel blades... they require an action to lock the blade in the first place... technically, by jamming something in any non locking knife you have a locking knife... is there a diference? and what's legal?

An opinel is a locking knife. You need a reasonable reason to carry one, just as you would if it were a sheath knife.

Jamming a folder open, would probably constitute modification of the knife - just like welding it open would. However, the knife itself, is not illegal before you jam it open. The law says "it must be readily foldable at all times" - if you do something to jam it open, it stops being readily foldable and you've turned it into a knife that is potentially illegal (you'd need a reason to have it).

There is no way round this, there is no get out. If it locks, you need a reason to carry it, or you are breaking the law. An officer may disagree with your reason and arrest you anyway, that is his right. You may have to prove your reason in court. The court may disagree that your reason is "reasonable" and fine you or send you to prison. So, be sure your "reasonable reason" is indeed a reasonable reason, and not some half baked excuse that you think lamely gets you round the law - it wont!

Using your opinel for bushcraft is a reasonable reason for having it, but only while you are actually doing bushcraft. Using your opinel for bushcraft, is not a reasonable reason for having it with you in Tesco's on a saturday afternoon.