The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

[santaman2000]

But you need to carry the parts?
If it comes to the worst I imagine you could manually touch off the powder in the pan with a burning twig or similar?
Would that work so you could still keep a degree of accurancy and hit the target?
With a modern gun, if basically any component breaks, you are out. Imo this is the huge weakness with modern firearms.
Even with a decent home workshop it is virtually impossible to replicate most internal parts. Complex design, specific alloys.
I do all my tuning and fitting of spare parts on my guns, have always done so, and it is becoming more and more difficult.

This specially on standard US made guns, where I feel the quality is in a virtual free fall. Extreme loose fit, no possibility for any adjustments. Weird powdery alloys.

I hesitate to mention them for fear of jinxing them; but Ruger actually seems to be inproving regarding quality (although they're as complex as the rest)

 

[Klenchblaize]

Let me make something quite clear to you Janne. I am 68 years of age, I have been hunting with bow & gun since I was 10 years of age. I own & use modern firearms, bow, & muzzleloading guns. I can stalk close enough to a wild animal to touch it. My many years of experience has taught me that you are full of ****, you may know something of modern firearms, but that is about it. Frankly I have had enough of listening to your total bull****, you MAY be able to convince others of your assumed expertise, but not me Janne.
Keith.

Wow! For one moment I thought this was the Stalking Directory Forum!

K

 

[Tonyuk]

This thread is certainly getting heated...

For what its worth, i would take a modern rifle over a flintlock any day, far easier to use.

Tonyuk

 

[mrcharly]

Given the very original post, I have to say I would take a crossbow over a flintlock for long term wilderness survival. Making new crossbow bolts would be far easier than trying to make gunpowder!

Sure, a bow and arrow would be lighter, but I've hunted with them and I'm pretty sure I could make a basic crossbow bolt with greater ease. Probably could make a basic 20lb bow for hunting birds as well but tbh throwing sticks are easier to make and carry and I had as much success with those as I had with bow and arrow.

 

[forrestdweller]

Ah yes, well I am personally not in the habit of going hunting in the rain, are you? I simply don't see the point. I wait for fine weather. That aside, we know how to waterproof the flint lock, so it is not a problem.
Keith.

usually I'm not hunting in the rain, either- but on occasion it started to rain while I was out...
as already said: I've never fired a black powder weapon (= .22 rifle, shotgun, airgun, knobkerrie and traps/snares only) but given the opportunity I'd try it, too....

 

[Countryman]

Let me make something quite clear to you Janne. I am 68 years of age, I have been hunting with bow & gun since I was 10 years of age. I own & use modern firearms, bow, & muzzleloading guns. I can stalk close enough to a wild animal to touch it. My many years of experience has taught me that you are full of ****, you may know something of modern firearms, but that is about it. Frankly I have had enough of listening to your total bull****, you MAY be able to convince others of your assumed expertise, but not me Janne.
Keith.

I think the thing you make clear is that your isolation and living off grid have ill prepared you for handling anybodies opinion other than your own.

Two or 3 of the people you have blown up at have at least us much experience as you Loupy. Play nice with your peers and stop being abusive.

You might learn something!

 

[Janne]

I hesitate to mention them for fear of jinxing them; but Ruger actually seems to be inproving regarding quality (although they're as complex as the rest)

I am a huge Ruger fan. I started my revolver ownership with a Security Six, then owned most of their revolver offerings, both SA and DA. my favourites were an early GP100 and a Super Redhawk. Sadly, I had to sell all my guns moving to UK. I love tuning them.
Now got a GP100 Match Champion.
Unfortunately it is the second worst Ruger I have owned, after a 9mm semi.
Incredibly bad fit of most parts plus, to top it off, the cut out in the frame fir the hamner is wonky.
Once I can apply for a new .357 I will try to sell it and get a S&W for a change.
Tried to contact Ruger with photo but they never answered back.

 

[Janne]

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding humane kills (within the range that we agree is limited)



No federal level laws prohibiting spring loaded traps; and no state laws in any state I'm aware of (although there are requirements for them to be marked with the trappers license info and some issues regarding where they can be placed) Loads of laws prohibiting snares, deadfalls, and similar home made traps though. I helped my cousin run such a trapline in the past and it's still a common way for many rural folks to supplement their income. A common raccoon pelt is worth over $75 raw, and we'd manage to average two or three coons plus a half dozen possums per week, and maybe a bobcat a year. Now-a-days they also harvest plentiful coyote in south Mississippi (the trapping's better and the fur prices higher farther north).

Edited to correct: I was quoting last years prices and it appears coon pelts are at a bottom this year (22% sold at $11.50) Here's a link to the auction results www.trappingtoday.com/category/fur-prices

Santaman, I was thinking of European states.
I know Rusdia allow spring loaded traps, but do not think the others do. Fish harpoons are also illegal in Scandinavia and most Europe.

 

[Janne]

Let me make something quite clear to you Janne. I am 68 years of age, I have been hunting with bow & gun since I was 10 years of age. I own & use modern firearms, bow, & muzzleloading guns. I can stalk close enough to a wild animal to touch it. My many years of experience has taught me that you are full of ****, you may know something of modern firearms, but that is about it. Frankly I have had enough of listening to your total bull****, you MAY be able to convince others of your assumed expertise, but not me Janne.
Keith.

68? Your creaking old joints will soon stop you stalking! I am a youngster of 56 and can sometimes feel them.
If you notice that animals start hearing you I can recommend Cod Liver Oil for you.
Old used engine oil for your zimmer frame. Those wheels can make a racket if not oiled, do you not agree?

If you are so convinced of the supeority of the old tech, why do you own and use modern ones?
Does not make sense?

I know a bit about guns. Modern guns. Nothing ( zero) about trapping linrs, hunting with bow and arrow, blow arrows, crossbow, spear, stone throwing, poison plants and such, as it is illegal where I am from.

 

[santaman2000]

Santaman, I was thinking of European states.
I know Rusdia allow spring loaded traps, but do not think the others do. Fish harpoons are also illegal in Scandinavia and most Europe.

You can't gig either!? Cuts way down on floundering and frogging.

 

[santaman2000]

.....I know a bit about guns. Modern guns. Nothing ( zero) about trapping linrs, hunting with bow and arrow, blow arrows, crossbow, spear, stone throwing, poison plants and such, as it is illegal where I am from.

Fair enough as far as it goes. But if you know nothing about it as you admit, you really shouldn't underestimate the efficiency of muzzleloaders or bows just because "it's illegal where I am from." Often such laws are based on perception rather than reality. And those perceptions mutually become symbiotic with said laws (you infer your own lack of knowledge is due to said pursuits being illegal therefore your only perception of such hunting and trapping is what you've been told/taught by those who are against it) Perhaps even more important than not underestimating the capabilities of such methods, you think harder before you spread those perceptions until you've actually been on such a hunt with experienced hunters (or ran a trapline with them)

 

[Countryman]

I think the point really was the relative efficiency of archaic vs modern arms.

Smoothbore musket, Black Powder, Flintlock. Come on Santaman you know all of these systems are inherently weak.

You use about every additional advantage you can squeeze to use a bow and cap n ball rifle in a hunt stateside.

Nobody underestimates the efficiency of archaic forms, the fact is they just aren't as efficient.

The thought of a Highland stalk, mouflon hunt or standing having boar driven at you with a flintlock in your hand is completely crazy.




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[mick91]

For all I do like muzzle stuffers I have to admit I'm in camp cartridge. More so a design like a flintlock. Yes they're still I viable hunting option, in the same way a traditional sling, bolas, spear or wooden club is. But I can't help but think they've been largely replaced by modern systems for a good reason. Even taking lock times and accuracy out of the equation, convenience would be my major draw factor. As for making powder, yeah, anyone can make a basic black powder, it'll burn, it might even go bang, but it probably won't be all that consistent. Assuming of course you aren't making it in a laboratory. Its also a little more unstable, I remember a very very learned chap from the amateur pyro community having a mishap with black powder in ball mills.
As I said I do enjoy muzzle loaders, they're a lot of fun. I just think there are better and safer options. And as a member of the British muzzle loading association once said to me (after a few aim straighteners in the bisley pavilion) "muzzle loaders using black powder all take 21 minutes and half a second to take every shot. Half a second for the shot to go off, a minute to reload, 10 minutes for the smoke to clear and 10 minutes to put the fires out!"

 

[Janne]

When my dad ( MD, surgeon)was young he used to hunt deer and wild boar. He told me how a wounded boar could attack. on one hunt one of his friends got the thigh ripped open by a big 'tusker" and only survived because my dads surgery skills. After that his group switched from rifles to 12 Ga shotguns and slugs.
So, technically speaking, a smoothbore has its place still in modern hunting.
I have never hunted with the old guns, but used black powder revolvers on the range. Rifled. Weighted out the powder before hand at home, checked each lead ball for roundness and weight. Still had a lower accurancy than a modern cartridge.
But they are great fun!

 

[Janne]

You can't gig either!? Cuts way down on floundering and frogging.

Not sure what that means, sorry!
If you mean like a multi pointed spear - no, illegal. Used to be used for flounder and eel in the past.
Frogs we do not eat traditionally or even is a survival scenario, as there is plenty other animals to eat.
Flounder we fish with a bottom line, or if with a rod, a weight and a hook on a casting rod.
When I was in Norway a few weeks ago I also went for crab. In fact, got only 2 crab ( wrong season) but about a dozen flounder!
Good eating!

I had a beautiful 120 lb longbow in UK, used to fun shoot on my field. Very difficult. Taken by the customs here when I moved.

 

[santaman2000]

I think the point really was the relative efficiency of archaic vs modern arms.

Smoothbore musket, Black Powder, Flintlock. Come on Santaman you know all of these systems are inherently weak.

You use about every additional advantage you can squeeze to use a bow and cap n ball rifle in a hunt stateside.....

Actually no, I don't. Those advantages are available and many do use them (sabot rounds, scopes, bow release, bow sights, etc.) Well, perhaps I shouldn't have included scpoes as they were available even back then. I personally don't use them. The reason some DO use them has more to do with the fact they're not really there for the purpose of primitive hunting; they're folks who (like you) would prefer to be there with modern firearms but are simply adapting to hunt an additional season when modern arms aren't allowed.

As for me, I use a plain jane recurve bow and a CVA Hawkin with patched ball. No problems. Inherently weak? Tell that to Fred Bear's progeny as they hold up the photos of the elephant he took with a 75# recurve.

 

[santaman2000]

Not sure what that means, sorry!
If you mean like a multi pointed spear - no, illegal. Used to be used for flounder and eel in the past.
Frogs we do not eat traditionally or even is a survival scenario, as there is plenty other animals to eat.
Flounder we fish with a bottom line, or if with a rod, a weight and a hook on a casting rod.
When I was in Norway a few weeks ago I also went for crab. In fact, got only 2 crab ( wrong season) but about a dozen flounder!
Good eating!

I had a beautiful 120 lb longbow in UK, used to fun shoot on my field. Very difficult. Taken by the customs here when I moved.

Yeah a gig is a 3 or 4 prong spear

Smaller ones on about an inch or so across are used for bullfrogs (we only eat the hind legs) while somewhat larger are used for flounder. We sometimes fish for flounder with a line but rarely. It's either gigs or cast nets usually.

 

[Countryman]

I find the idea of hunting Elephant repugnant. Particularly with a bow.

Fundamentally as an ethical hunter i'd want to be sure I did my best to secure a clean kill. Primitive forms don't have that security in anything other than ideal circumstances. Only modern firearms give you the option of a quick follow up shot.

Sometimes Santa I think you deliberately misunderstand. Inherent weaknesses referred to smoothbore (range), flintlock ignition (pissing rain) and black powder (performance). So stalking in Scotland (wet), mouflon hunting (often rangey) and driven boar (needing reliability and a hail of lead)


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[santaman2000]

I find the idea of hunting Elephant repugnant. Particularly with a bow.

Fundamentally as an ethical hunter i'd want to be sure I did my best to secure a clean kill. Primitive forms don't have that security in anything other than ideal circumstances. Only modern firearms give you the option of a quick follow up shot.

Sometimes Santa I think you deliberately misunderstand. Inherent weaknesses referred to smoothbore (range), flintlock ignition (pissing rain) and black powder (performance). So stalking in Scotland (wet), mouflon hunting (often rangey) and driven boar (needing reliability and a hail of lead)


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Old fashioned muzzle loading double barrels (rifles as well as shotguns) give exactly that same follow up shot capability. Have done for well over 400 years.

Whether you find elephant hunting repugnant or not is irrelevant; the example is definitive proof of the capabilities.

 

[Countryman]

Never seen a double barrelled flintlock.

Sure you can take on anything in optimal circumstances.

I'm going to leave it there.

Night!


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