The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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....to get back to the original subject: barrel fouling is an issue with black powder weapons: how did the long hunters/mountain men deal with this issue?!...

Not as difficult for them as you might think. Remember they made their living primarily by trapping with hunting being a secondary thing and shots being more spaced out so they typically had time to clean the guns often enough to negate the issue.

Military or other tactical use might be a bit different but at the time everybody else (including any enemies) were armed likewise so they were tactically equal (at least on that single issue) Hence most militaries of the day training more diligently with bayonets and civilians more reliant on other edged weapons. All that said, I don't think the OP's planning military actions or zombie defense in his premise.
 
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Don't count on it; a professional flute player travelling to Australia had his (antique wooden) flute taken off him and destroyed. It was oiled (obviously). They claimed there might have been evidence of insect damage and hence infestation - it was a 200year old flute *** not something you'd let be infested with borers. Treated daily with almond oil.

The story can be found on the chiff and fipple forum as a caution to musicians who are travelling.

ouch-that sucks....! as I said: I checked with authorities (and had the printed statement with me on my first trip) and had never any issues---makes me wonder if it wasn't a case of "" ohhh-id like to have a 200year old flute in my possession:let's confiscate it!"".....
 
Well.

For a start, very few hunters use Black Powder, they use Pyrodex.
Black Powder is highly explosive and dangerous to store, carry and use.

1: Reloading and casting your bullets brings the cost down to almost nothing. A few cents for the powder, a few cents for the primer.

2: Combination? Read my point on 18

4: Varying powder loads is easy if you reload. Plus you can use vary the projectiles considering weight, expansion rate, material and so on in a contemporary cased round. Including home cast lead alloy bullets ranging from round balls, wadcutters to torpedo.

5: so can a modern gun, if you are just as crazy.

6: see 4. Casting own bullets for a cased round is just as easy as casting a round ball for a muzzle loader

7: True. If you have all the components. The only component that is easy to make is the C powder. But you get an end product of varying quality and power/ strength, which makes ethical hunting challenging.
Also it is a fairly dangerous thing, to make your Black Powder. Ask your home insurer what they say you doing that!

9: you can use modern propellant this way too. It is even better as it burns slower. No flash to roast your hands and face, plus ignites the grass, tinder or twigs better.

12: I have never had a non functioning primer. Misfire due to a badly seated one yes, but then it fired the second time.

13: no need for wadding in a modern cartridge. Can be used when reloading shotgun shells if you run out of the plastic cups though.

14: depends on the country, right?

15: see above

16: To compare a .32 with a .22 LR or SR is stupid and wrong. Apples and Oranges.
A .32 round ball has far less energy than any modern .30 round.
A .32 round ball has far less energy than any other .22 ammo, LR and SR excepted.
(.223 - far, far more powerful, and so on....)
.32 more accurate over a greater distance? Is the author completely out of his mind or just suffers from wishful thinking? 22 ammo is hyper accurate up to 100 meters or so compared. Any other calliber including and beyond that range.
A round ball fired from a smooth bore muzzle loader can never, ever be as accurate as a modern round.
The trajectory is more parabolic due to lower speeds. Plus the aerodynamic form of the projectile. The accurancy is lower du to the no-spin of the projectie.

You can use shots in ammo .38 or bigger using the plastic shot containers developed fir this purpose.

Poachers in Scandinavia take moose with a .22 LR rifle. It is not the size, it is where you put it......:)
(I even think a .22 Magnum is more powerful than a .32 roundball from a musket?)

17: Stupid claim. Sure the damage is huge. But I can produce a bigger wound canal by using a .22 calliber bullet.
How? By bending the tip of my .233 FMJ so it spins. Plus I can choose to hit a front leg in 150 meters. You can not do that with a smoothbore.
Hitting anything with a .75 smoothbore pistol would be challenging. In fact I did not know they made .62 or bigger pistols.

18: Mixing a ball and shots in the same load sounds crazy. You are introducing one more unmeasurable variable.
Even if you have extremely consistant ball/ shot mix ( exact number of shots, exact weight of each ball and shot)

The accurance and range of the ball will be compromised as the shot take away a lot of the energy.
And claiming that you can take multiple targets - like what? A sitting flock of birds? Highly unethical. Immoral.

19: A .32 has far more recoil than a .22LR or .22 SR

Loads of people hunt with muzzle loaders. Or bow and arrow, blow gun, airgun, crossbow.
Yes you will get the game.
But at what cost? A modern expanding bullet will give a quick, humane death to the animal. To achieve this with any other method is difficult, as you with those need to achieve a clean heart hit.
It is well proven that game suffers far more for longer on average using those techniques.

Sorry Janne, but your reply is totally bias & ridiculous, I will not even bother to try & justify my recommendations to you. You obviously have a bee in your bonnet, get over it.
Keith.
 
Nail on head. Traps & Snares all day long. Pissing about with maintenance of Firearms. Over-rated in my opinion.

Another option to consider would be Lead loaded Catapults. With a well developed skill set they are reliable. ( though my Catapult skill set needs plenty of working on )[/QUOTE

Totally agree Richard, the trap line will provide most of your meat. The flintlock is a back-up. This is one of the reasons the gunpowder & lead lasts so long.
This is just one of my trapping articles on my blog Richard.
Regards, Keith.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/traps-and-trapping.html
 
how difficult would it be to convert a percussion muzzleloader into a flintlock?! (in case you run out of percussion caps)I'm not an expert --just curious.....-- but after the invention of the percussion cap it was not uncommon to convert flintlock weapons to percussion cap; apparently the misfiring rate for the "brown Bess" dropped from 30% down to 2% after switching to percussion cap..... I guess the same was true for hunting weapons of the time?!


If the percussion arm is using a drum & nipple (such as CVA guns), then it can easily be converted to flintlock.

It is interesting to note that even after the percussion system was invented, woodsmen & Mountain Men still kept using their flintlocks. Percussions are okay where you have a supply of caps, but away from civilisation they are not as reliable. Caps can get wet & deteriorate as well as running out. Also they are not as easily converted to matchlock or tinderlock as the flintlock is.
The misfiring rate of military arms in battle was probably fairly high, because of the stress & panic the shooter would not take the time to attend to his lock. Also there was a strict firing order, they simply did not have the time to fix a problem. In normal hunting conditions the shooter has the time to service his lock properly, so lessening the chance of a misfire.
Keith.
The Flintlock Gun In The 18th Century & Now. http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/the-flintlock-gun-in-18th-century-and.html
 
You can (according to African PH's) kill anything with well placed shots from a Rem .30-'06. That's fine.
Shot placement is the ultimate goal.
The charcoal burners have their flints - works just fine for them and their families.
The onus is entirely upon the skill and the ethics of the hunter. Show up or shut up.
Either you can walk the talk or not = it's that simple.

The argumentative discussion serves no purpose other that to reveal a great variety of choices where you may or may not be restricted by law.
I cannot guide you hunting here by law. You buy guide services or eat take-away.

Well said RV.
Regards, Keith.
 
I never wrote the 7mm was a super round, I just like it the best as an all rounder.
Just as I prefer a .357 for a revolver.
One huge advantage with a rimfire like the .22 LR is that it is also easy to preserve / make watertight due to its size and only one path for water ingression.
I have read that some people preserve them by dipping them in wax.
Personslly I think a semi auto rifle would not make an optimal survival gun due to its relative complexity and higher chance of non functioning.
But it may be easier to use by people that are not experienced ?
Bolt action is better, imo.

Btw, a flintlock has one major disadvatage. It needs a flint. If you break it, or lose it, what happpens then?
Flint is not that common.

Flint is very common in the UK. Elsewhere other siliceous rocks are used. Agate is very popular & was more often found in tinderboxes than flint was. Chert is also good. Depends on the area you are in as to what siliceous rocks are available to you.
Flintlock users carry spare flints regardless. Gun flints are knapped as required. IF you were unable to find any suitable siliceous rocks, you can easily convert the flintlock to a tinderlock or matchlock. Not the best of firearm to have to use, but better than nothing.
You need to take into account the whole technology of the flintlock era. A trap line will supply most of your meat, the flintlock is just a good back-up. Bows & arrows are reasonable easy to make, especially with all the good timbers available in the UK.
Keith.
 
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Before flint there was the matchlock :)

Beautiful looking piece Bishop, thank you for posting. As a matter of interest, if spare lock parts were not being carried, & IF the flint lock should malfunction, you can easily turn the flint lock into a matchlock & continue using it.
Regards, Keith.
 
hhhmmmm-sending smoke signals to the game you plan to hunt?! :goodluck: trying to catch diner I'd say....

back in the match lock and flintlock days it was not unheard of to stop battles when the weather turned too bad: rain and gunpowder don't go too well together and cartridges do have a clear advantage here....

Ah yes, well I am personally not in the habit of going hunting in the rain, are you? I simply don't see the point. I wait for fine weather. That aside, we know how to waterproof the flint lock, so it is not a problem.
Keith.
 
It aint the F&S that is the problem - it is damp tinder....
"Put your faith in God and keep your powder (and or tinder and kindling) dry!" as the bloke (with additions) said!

Quite right John, though I have never had damp tinder. I use a tinderbox, & this is carried in a waterproof oiled leather fire bag. I have made fire with a fire-bow in pouring rain. It is really just a matter of skill & experience. IF damp tinder is a problem, or if one runs out of prepared tinder, you can simply rub a little gunpowder into the tinder. If you are not experienced in doing this, please take care.
Same with the flintlock. In damp weather, rain or snow, I waterproof the lock. But usually I wait for fine weather before going hunting.
Regards, Keith.
 
wooden articles have to be free of bark, insects and oiled or varnished-- I brought my walking stick several times to both NZ and OZ without issues ( but checked before my first trip to NZ with authorities )


to get back to the original subject: barrel fouling is an issue with black powder weapons: how did the long hunters/mountain men deal with this issue?!

one advantage of muzzleloaders i can see is the fact that theoretically ​it would be possible to make one yourself in a WT**** scenario- the hill tribes used crude homemade shotguns during the Vietnam war, the kachin preferred muzzleloader shotguns in WWII despite their "" allies"" supplying them with modern weapons and I remember reading a story of tiger poachers using a homemade gun (using match heads as propellant)- the problem would be the barrel (@ least I don't fancy a barrel blowing up in my face)

the problem with the longer reloading time could be solved with a replica of a lorenzoni or kalthoff rifle......

Barrel fouling is really only a problem with rifles, not smoothbores, & only a problem if you are target shooting. Smoothbores CAN use a patched ball, but traditionally they only used wads or wadding for both round ball & shot. You can of course use both in one load with a smoothbore.
When hunting or if in a fire fight using a rifle, you would not bother patching the ball after the first couple of shots, you simply just load the ball un-patched. When target shooting you simply wipe the bore with your wiping stick between shots.
If you have a smoothbore, you can make paper cartridges, this is a faster way of reloading. The military & militia units used paper cartridges.
Regards, Keith.
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Sorry Janne, but your reply is totally bias & ridiculous, I will not even bother to try & justify my recommendations to you. You obviously have a bee in your bonnet, get over it.
Keith.

No, no bee in my bonnet, just experience of hunting for 40 years. With modern guns. Plus with a revolver. Yes, I sm biassed towards modern technology, technology that works far better than the old technology when it comes to accuracy, low freqvency of misfires, range and quick humane kill.

Your post gave the impression ( to me at least) that the old tech was and is superior to the new tech. But we have to be realistic. If it was, we would not have the new tech, would we?
 
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Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Ah yes, well I am personally not in the habit of going hunting in the rain, are you? I simply don't see the point. I wait for fine weather. That aside, we know how to waterproof the flint lock, so it is not a problem.
Keith.


In a long term survival situation, or today ( sport hunting) we need to hunt when it rains, or snows. The Swedish season is fairly short, and if you work most days like most do you go hunting despite adverse weather conditions.
This has taken the fun out of many a hunt day for me, you can trust that!
In Australia you are mote lucky with the climate.
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Flint is very common in the UK. Elsewhere other siliceous rocks are used. Agate is very popular & was more often found in tinderboxes than flint was. Chert is also good. Depends on the area you are in as to what siliceous rocks are available to you.
Flintlock users carry spare flints regardless. Gun flints are knapped as required. IF you were unable to find any suitable siliceous rocks, you can easily convert the flintlock to a tinderlock or matchlock. Not the best of firearm to have to use, but better than nothing.
You need to take into account the whole technology of the flintlock era. A trap line will supply most of your meat, the flintlock is just a good back-up. Bows & arrows are reasonable easy to make, especially with all the good timbers available in the UK.
Keith.

Agree with mixing the tech. Many countries today limit the alternative methods. Not sure if any country allows the spring loaded trap?
Of course, in a long term survival situation we do not have to worry about laws and regulations!

Flint and dimilar stones are not so common in many areas of Europe. Here in the Caribbean rocks you mention do not exist.
Since beginning of time, raw flint and made flint implements were one of the first commodities traded.
 
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No, no bee in my bonnet, just experience of hunting for 40 years. With modern guns. Plus with a revolver. Yes, I sm biassed towards modern technology, technology that works far better than the old technology when it comes to accuracy, low freqvency of misfires, range and quick humane kill.

Let me make something quite clear to you Janne. I am 68 years of age, I have been hunting with bow & gun since I was 10 years of age. I own & use modern firearms, bow, & muzzleloading guns. I can stalk close enough to a wild animal to touch it. My many years of experience has taught me that you are full of ****, you may know something of modern firearms, but that is about it. Frankly I have had enough of listening to your total bull****, you MAY be able to convince others of your assumed expertise, but not me Janne.
Keith.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
No, no bee in my bonnet, just experience of hunting for 40 years. With modern guns. Plus with a revolver. Yes, I sm biassed towards modern technology, technology that works far better than the old technology when it comes to accuracy, low freqvency of misfires, range and quick humane kill........

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding humane kills (within the range that we agree is limited)

Agree with mixing the tech. Many countries today limit the alternative methods. Not sure if any country allows the spring loaded trap?.....

No federal level laws prohibiting spring loaded traps; and no state laws in any state I'm aware of (although there are requirements for them to be marked with the trappers license info and some issues regarding where they can be placed) Loads of laws prohibiting snares, deadfalls, and similar home made traps though. I helped my cousin run such a trapline in the past and it's still a common way for many rural folks to supplement their income. A common raccoon pelt is worth over $75 raw, and we'd manage to average two or three coons plus a half dozen possums per week, and maybe a bobcat a year. Now-a-days they also harvest plentiful coyote in south Mississippi (the trapping's better and the fur prices higher farther north).

Edited to correct: I was quoting last years prices and it appears coon pelts are at a bottom this year (22% sold at $11.50) Here's a link to the auction results www.trappingtoday.com/category/fur-prices
 
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Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
You do not need any of this Janne. You simply remove the drum & screw in a liner. Then you fit the flint lock. Job done.
Keith.

But you need to carry the parts?
If it comes to the worst I imagine you could manually touch off the powder in the pan with a burning twig or similar?
Would that work so you could still keep a degree of accurancy and hit the target?
With a modern gun, if basically any component breaks, you are out. Imo this is the huge weakness with modern firearms.
Even with a decent home workshop it is virtually impossible to replicate most internal parts. Complex design, specific alloys.
I do all my tuning and fitting of spare parts on my guns, have always done so, and it is becoming more and more difficult.

This specially on standard US made guns, where I feel the quality is in a virtual free fall. Extreme loose fit, no possibility for any adjustments. Weird powdery alloys.
 

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