The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

mick91

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 13, 2015
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Lots of truth in these points. However, regarding cleaning the guns with limited access to solvents; the traditional way to clean black powder guns was/is with hot, soapy water. Also remember that a round ball isn't the only projectile for black powder guns (and I'm not talking about shot either) The conical bullet was developed for them before cartridge guns became the norm (think of the minnie ball)
I did mean to specify "ball" ammunition as in conical bullets not strictly speaking a spherical musket ball. Good point on the cleaning in fairness. But you know yourself leave BP fouling in a barrel they're orange with rust in a day. Leave nitro fouling in one it's just dirty

As an added point it would seem actual black powder is much easier to get hold of here too :s just apply for a licence and have a suitable box to store it
 
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santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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I did mean to specify "ball" ammunition as in conical bullets not strictly speaking a spherical musket ball. Good point on the cleaning in fairness. But you know yourself leave BP fouling in a barrel they're orange with rust in a day. Leave nitro fouling in one it's just dirty

As an added point it would seem actual black powder is much easier to get hold of here too :s just apply for a licence and have a suitable box to store it

Yeah to the rust issue. Our problem getting black powder is related to the expense; it demands more hazardous shipping fees than the synthetics (Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc.) True black powder ranges anywhere from $19 to $29 for a one pound can and then add another $30 Haz-Mat fee to the shipping. IF we can find it in shops there is no additional fee, but few shops carry the real thing. I gotta check the local Bass Pro in Destin soon and last Night I called the Gander Mountain in Pensacola who said they do indeed have some.

No licenses required unless you're wanting commercial quantities.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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"Guns don't kill people" is nonsense because a gun can kill in the blink of an eye and can be fired by anybody, whatever their age, who picks it up. Hammers require force and sustained ill-will, a rapier requires precision and intent. As to the attitudes of gun clubs. Michael Ryan and and the Tunnel Rifle and Pistol Club, Wiltshire is an interesting study.
 
"Guns don't kill people" is nonsense because a gun can kill in the blink of an eye and can be fired by anybody, whatever their age, who picks it up. Hammers require force and sustained ill-will, a rapier requires precision and intent. As to the attitudes of gun clubs. Michael Ryan and and the Tunnel Rifle and Pistol Club, Wiltshire is an interesting study.


interesting where this thread has moved from the original topic.....


modern firearms do indeed make it easier to kill one or several humans and in a short time but I still believe its not the gun but the homo ""sapiens""​ who pulls the trigger.. and have a look at the numbers of decent vs. criminal/illegal firearm users....

far more humans are killed daily by mobile phones, alcohol/drugs and cars( I had at least one case of cowards trying to run me over deliberately and lost count of the number of "close calls")--- but so far you can (usually) buy those things without health / criminal record check....
 
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CumbrianLad

Nomad
May 5, 2016
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Carlisle
interesting where this thread has moved from the original topic.....


modern firearms do indeed make it easier to kill one or several humans and in a short time but I still believe its not the gun but the homo ""sapiens""​ who pulls the trigger...looo

I completely agree people would find a way to hurt one an other with or without guns
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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"Guns don't kill people" is nonsense because a gun can kill in the blink of an eye and can be fired by anybody, whatever their age, who picks it up. Hammers require force and sustained ill-will, a rapier requires precision and intent. As to the attitudes of gun clubs. Michael Ryan and and the Tunnel Rifle and Pistol Club, Wiltshire is an interesting study.

Guns make it easier for humans to kill ( prey or other humans) yes, that is why they were invented and perfected, but it is still the human that does the killing, not the instrument.

Could you provide a link to that study?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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"Guns don't kill people" is nonsense because a gun can kill in the blink of an eye and can be fired by anybody, whatever their age, who picks it up......

"....can be fired by anybody, whatever their age, who picks it up." So you contradict yourself by admitting that somebody's gotta fire it.



Today I swung my front door wide open and placed myAR15 right in the doorway. I layed a 30 round mag.next to it and noticing that it had no legs, so I placed it in my wheelchair to help it get around. I then left it alone and went about my business.

While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign right in front of our house.

After about an hour, I checked on the gun. It was still sitting there in the wheelchair, right where I had left it. It hadn’t rolled itself outside. It certainly hadn’t killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so. In fact, it hadn’t even loaded itself.

Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people. Either the media is wrong, and it’s the misuse of guns by PEOPLE that kills people, or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world.
​
Alright, well I’m off to check on my spoons. I hear they’re making people fat.
 
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Janne

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A human loads the drum/magazine/ or places powder, wad and bullet and tamps it down, flicks off the safety ( if any), aims at the target, then pulls the trigger.

The gun does nothing at all without human interaction, except sitting in a safe/cupboard and gets rusty. (Unless you buy a Stainless steel gun).

A car does not kill. The driver does. Everybody agrees to that, correct?
 
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Corso

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Aug 13, 2007
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what is the point in the arguments neither US or UK legislation going to change by what's written here and frankly its ruined what was an otherwise interesting thread
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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what is the point in the arguments neither US or UK legislation going to change by what's written here and frankly its ruined what was an otherwise interesting thread

I'd also like to see the thread return to a discussion of muzzle-loaders and muzzle-loader hunting.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Muzzle loaders vs cartrige guns?

The original poster did some outrageous claims in his first post, and I was of the impression that ( after a healthy discussion) the topic was dead?

Outrageous? Nahh. But definitely exaggerated.
 

Klenchblaize

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Nov 25, 2005
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Jumping gee-hosa-fat! We gonna fill that cowpoke fulla lead or move on?? Can't believe this thread is still running!

Time to buy a 22 Hornet and consign ol' flinty to the cabin wall.

Cheers!

K
 

Klenchblaize

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 25, 2005
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That's always sounded to me as the reloadable equivalent of a 22rimfire mag and a very versatile cartridge (although not of much use in the uk with the dense populated areas).

Notwithstanding there should be a universal code of in-the-field rifle safety and that is adhered to by all (read what you point at; angle of shot and safe backstop), I would take issue that the Hornet or indeed any other centrefire cartridge is less appropriate to dense popuated areas if considering other than the report of said firearm.

Any 22lr owner who has used such a rifle other than on the range will know that this, above all other cartridges, is prone to producing richochet when least expected. And this even after passing through a rabbit at 60 yards when using subsonic ammunition as I have experienced on many occasions!

In my humble opinion the 22 Hornet when loaded with a 35g V-Max on top of 13 grains of Lil-Gun powder is one of the finest woodland fox culling rifles. It is also an absolute joy to shoot with all but zero recoil that never fails to bring a smile to the face of the most experienced Rifleman.

K
 

Janne

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Feb 10, 2016
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If we all are missing the point, is it because we do not see it?

You are trying to live off grid as much as you can. But by start using bow and arrow, or a crossbow, you will take one step closer to your goal.

It all depends on what exactly you mean with "long term wilderness living or survival". It is a very wide description.

In Sweden we have plenty of people that live off the grid. Some are very similar to the US Amish. Others are more like you ( I imagine).

One of my best friends and his wife is one of the remaining Back to Nature people still living the eay they wanted to in the 1970's.
 
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Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
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I think you are all missing the point here, but each to our own. Certainly not worth arguing about. If you think that your choice of modern gun has all the advantages that I have stated re the flintlock, then that is the one you should go with.
Keith.


don't be discoraged mate, some of us like to embrace a different approach and learn from others...
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
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Been away from the forum for a while and jumped into this topic a tad later than normal. The original post was interesting and it relates to the American experience early on our frontier. It also relates to a very hot topic in the USA, which is long term survival after the collapse/apocalypse, etc.

OK, flintlocks are interesting. In the USA we have 50 states and each has a different set of rules for firearms ownership and for hunting, in addition to Federal rules. However there tends to be generalities. Most states have separate hunting seasons for modern firearms, archery, and primitive firearms (muzzleloaders).

Because of the near universal dedicated blackpowder hunting seasons everywhere in the USA, human nature and the free market being what it is, most of the muzzleloaders in use here nowadays are anything but primitive. They will be inline striker fired with a 209 shotgun primer in a weather-proof arrangement and mounted with a scope. The firing chambers in the barrel are optimized for pre-measured, compressed pellets of blackpowder substitute. The rifling twists on the barrel, typically .50 caliber, are optimized for a modern .45 caliber hollowpoint pistol bullet in a .50 caliber plastic polymer sabot jacket.

One company, Savage, even makes a muzzloading version of the Savage 110 bolt action rifle and it can use blackpowder, blackpowder substitute, or shotgun powder. It is very expensive and made in limited batches.

So, yeah, most new muzzleloaders sold here nowadays are not 'primitive' by any means. They are simply a modern firearm that doesn't use a brass casing for the powder and bullet. I can even get a .50 cal muzzloading barrel for my 12ga Mossberg 500 pump shotgun that makes it very similar to the previously mentioned modern muzzleloaders.

However, IIRC, one state, Pennsylvania, in an effort to enforce the 'primitive' part of the equation still requires a flintlock. The last I checked there was an American company selling a stainless steel flintlock that you could mount a scope on that had firing chambers in the barrel that are optimized for pre-measured, compressed pellets of blackpowder substitute. The rifling twists on the barrel, typically .50 caliber, are optimized for a modern .45 caliber hollowpoint pistol bullet in a .50 caliber plastic polymer sabot jacket. Ah yes, rules are just speed bumps on the highway of life.

Anyone who has fired a flintlock under low light conditions or has dealt with them in wet weather understands why everyone on the American frontier switched to percussion caps as fast as possible. There was a thriving business at trading posts converting flintlocks to percussion caps, and some of those people were a long ways from anything resembling civilization outside the fort/trading post.

This wasn't just a matter of practicality in use, it was also a matter of supply. What a lot of people don't understand is that the North American continent, compared to places like Europe, has a serious lack of decent flint deposits. Surprised? America is so rich in so many resources, our shortage of decent flint deposits is rather weird.

Most of what passes for naturally found flint in the USA isn't very high quality. During the flintlock era, good quality English and French gun flints were much sought after and brought a premium in America, even at the mountain man fur trapper rendezvous far out on the frontier. So, if you needed to rely upon the trading post or rendezvous for decent gun flints (in addition to lead and powder) you might as well rely upon the trading post or rendezvous for percussion caps.

So, before one runs around thinking that flintlocks are the forever weapon, ask yourself where your sources of decent quality gun flints comes from. Are they all imported? Is there a source in country? Is it 1000 kilometers away?

The native tribes in America took to firearms rapidly and it was their #1 item of trade and acquisition (followed by steel knives and axes, iron pots, wool blankets, mirrors and beads, trade points, plus coffee and sugar). The ones that fought the Whites a lot, like the Comanche, made do with flintlocks and bows for as long as possible since they could get the poor quality local flint to work but had no access at all to percussion caps unless they took them off of the body of a dead White man.

Muzzleloading smoothbores stayed on the frontier for a long time into the cartridge era. However, this was more a matter of need vs economics than anything else. Most of the settlers (farmers primarily) on the frontier during the great westward expansion after the Civil War were America's working poor looking for a better life.

Several years prior, at the start of the Civil War, the US government sent purchasing agents to Europe and bought up every inventory of obsolete military surplus firearms in Europe they could find. It allowed them to arm a lot of men rapidly till better guns could be made, but mostly it served keep them out of the hands of the Confederacy. These guns were typically caplocks, and many were converted from being flintlocks originally. They were generally smoothbore and usually about .55 to .58 caliber (about like a 28 gauge shotgun).

After the war, the US government sold these guns off for extremely cheap prices in bulk just to get them out of the warehouses. Repeating, cartridge firing weapons were available but very expensive and so was the ammo. Families without much cash to spend would buy one of these surplus muskets at a hardware store for dirt cheap and out on the frontier they would use it as both a musket and as a shotgun. They were farmers, not soldiers, and it was all they needed.

Right now, instead of a flintlock as an apocalypse survival weapon I would chose a modern made, recurve style crossbow with a scope, or a take down bow, long or recurve. The recurve crossbow and a regular non-compound bow, instead of compound, would allow the use of wooden arrow shafts which you should never use with a compound. Even used carbon fiber arrows and bolts should be inspected carefully before being used in a compound bow or compound crossbow. If you want the ultimate in long term self sufficiency that is the ticket.

As for myself, for long term survival I have a take down long bow, an air rifle, a handgun, a .22 rifle, and a shotgun with both smoothbore and rifled barrels. The shotgun I can reload with blackpowder if need be and I have a large supply of primers. I also know how to re-prime a primer if need be and I know how to make blackpowder suitable for use in a firearm (not all blackpowder is created equal).
 
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