The Advantages of A flintlock Gun for Long Term Wilderness Living/Survival.

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
BTW, for those talking about making blackpowder for use in firearms for long term survival, you will need to mill it and corn it.

In addition to not having good sources of flint and a lead shortage, the early USA also had really bad quality locally made powder. We really didn't have good quality gunpowder until a Frenchman named DuPont came over here and went hunting that he noticed this, saw a massive opportunity, and set up his powder mills.

There are instructions for making good powder on the web, and some of the best videos for this on YouTube are by a guy named Brushhippie.

Blackpowder is a mixture, not a compound, and for a firearm it needs a fast, uniform burning rate. The more you mill it, the more those ingredients are pressed together, the faster it burns. Basically you put the ingredients into a rock tumbler with lead balls and let it run for several hours.

After that you need to corn it by getting it wet with alcohol and using a mesh screen. Loose powder that is not corned is called 'serpentine'.

There is much more involved that just that if you want to do it right, so study up.

Your 4 ingredients for gunpowder to be used in a firearm are charcoal, sulfur, potassium nitrate, and dextrose (a binder).

You make the dextrose by baking corn starch in an oven. Use real hardwood charcoal, not pressed briquets. Garden sulfur works well. Stump remover sold in garden shops and hardware stores (at least that sold in the USA) is 99% pure potassium nitrate.
 
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If we all are missing the point, is it because we do not see it?

You are trying to live off grid as much as you can. But by start using bow and arrow, or a crossbow, you will take one step closer to your goal.

It all depends on what exactly you mean with "long term wilderness living or survival". It is a very wide description.

In Sweden we have plenty of people that live off the grid. Some are very similar to the US Amish. Others are more like you ( I imagine).

One of my best friends and his wife is one of the remaining Back to Nature people still living the eay they wanted to in the 1970's.

My sons have bows, so do some of our group members. I am at present making a bow. I can also make a bow out bush. But I can't make a gun when out bush. I can probably afford to carry a bow as well as my flintlock, but if I can't, then I still choose to carry the flintlock. Using a bow for defence is an option, but it is not as good as using a gun. But like I said, your choice.
Keith.
 
Been away from the forum for a while and jumped into this topic a tad later than normal. The original post was interesting and it relates to the American experience early on our frontier. It also relates to a very hot topic in the USA, which is long term survival after the collapse/apocalypse, etc.

OK, flintlocks are interesting. In the USA we have 50 states and each has a different set of rules for firearms ownership and for hunting, in addition to Federal rules. However there tends to be generalities. Most states have separate hunting seasons for modern firearms, archery, and primitive firearms (muzzleloaders).

Because of the near universal dedicated blackpowder hunting seasons everywhere in the USA, human nature and the free market being what it is, most of the muzzleloaders in use here nowadays are anything but primitive. They will be inline striker fired with a 209 shotgun primer in a weather-proof arrangement and mounted with a scope. The firing chambers in the barrel are optimized for pre-measured, compressed pellets of blackpowder substitute. The rifling twists on the barrel, typically .50 caliber, are optimized for a modern .45 caliber hollowpoint pistol bullet in a .50 caliber plastic polymer sabot jacket.

One company, Savage, even makes a muzzloading version of the Savage 110 bolt action rifle and it can use blackpowder, blackpowder substitute, or shotgun powder. It is very expensive and made in limited batches.

So, yeah, most new muzzleloaders sold here nowadays are not 'primitive' by any means. They are simply a modern firearm that doesn't use a brass casing for the powder and bullet. I can even get a .50 cal muzzloading barrel for my 12ga Mossberg 500 pump shotgun that makes it very similar to the previously mentioned modern muzzleloaders.

However, IIRC, one state, Pennsylvania, in an effort to enforce the 'primitive' part of the equation still requires a flintlock. The last I checked there was an American company selling a stainless steel flintlock that you could mount a scope on that had firing chambers in the barrel that are optimized for pre-measured, compressed pellets of blackpowder substitute. The rifling twists on the barrel, typically .50 caliber, are optimized for a modern .45 caliber hollowpoint pistol bullet in a .50 caliber plastic polymer sabot jacket. Ah yes, rules are just speed bumps on the highway of life.

Anyone who has fired a flintlock under low light conditions or has dealt with them in wet weather understands why everyone on the American frontier switched to percussion caps as fast as possible. There was a thriving business at trading posts converting flintlocks to percussion caps, and some of those people were a long ways from anything resembling civilization outside the fort/trading post.

This wasn't just a matter of practicality in use, it was also a matter of supply. What a lot of people don't understand is that the North American continent, compared to places like Europe, has a serious lack of decent flint deposits. Surprised? America is so rich in so many resources, our shortage of decent flint deposits is rather weird.

Most of what passes for naturally found flint in the USA isn't very high quality. During the flintlock era, good quality English and French gun flints were much sought after and brought a premium in America, even at the mountain man fur trapper rendezvous far out on the frontier. So, if you needed to rely upon the trading post or rendezvous for decent gun flints (in addition to lead and powder) you might as well rely upon the trading post or rendezvous for percussion caps.

So, before one runs around thinking that flintlocks are the forever weapon, ask yourself where your sources of decent quality gun flints comes from. Are they all imported? Is there a source in country? Is it 1000 kilometers away?

The native tribes in America took to firearms rapidly and it was their #1 item of trade and acquisition (followed by steel knives and axes, iron pots, wool blankets, mirrors and beads, trade points, plus coffee and sugar). The ones that fought the Whites a lot, like the Comanche, made do with flintlocks and bows for as long as possible since they could get the poor quality local flint to work but had no access at all to percussion caps unless they took them off of the body of a dead White man.

Muzzleloading smoothbores stayed on the frontier for a long time into the cartridge era. However, this was more a matter of need vs economics than anything else. Most of the settlers (farmers primarily) on the frontier during the great westward expansion after the Civil War were America's working poor looking for a better life.

Several years prior, at the start of the Civil War, the US government sent purchasing agents to Europe and bought up every inventory of obsolete military surplus firearms in Europe they could find. It allowed them to arm a lot of men rapidly till better guns could be made, but mostly it served keep them out of the hands of the Confederacy. These guns were typically caplocks, and many were converted from being flintlocks originally. They were generally smoothbore and usually about .55 to .58 caliber (about like a 28 gauge shotgun).

After the war, the US government sold these guns off for extremely cheap prices in bulk just to get them out of the warehouses. Repeating, cartridge firing weapons were available but very expensive and so was the ammo. Families without much cash to spend would buy one of these surplus muskets at a hardware store for dirt cheap and out on the frontier they would use it as both a musket and as a shotgun. They were farmers, not soldiers, and it was all they needed.

Right now, instead of a flintlock as an apocalypse survival weapon I would chose a modern made, recurve style crossbow with a scope, or a take down bow, long or recurve. The recurve crossbow and a regular non-compound bow, instead of compound, would allow the use of wooden arrow shafts which you should never use with a compound. Even used carbon fiber arrows and bolts should be inspected carefully before being used in a compound bow or compound crossbow. If you want the ultimate in long term self sufficiency that is the ticket.

As for myself, for long term survival I have a take down long bow, an air rifle, a handgun, a .22 rifle, and a shotgun with both smoothbore and rifled barrels. The shotgun I can reload with blackpowder if need be and I have a large supply of primers. I also know how to re-prime a primer if need be and I know how to make blackpowder suitable for use in a firearm (not all blackpowder is created equal).

You are not quite correct in your assumptions Nomad. The percussion gun was only popular in areas where percussion caps were available, that did NOT include wilderness areas. Mountain Men/Trappers did not convert to percussion, they kept their flintlocks. Flint is not the only siliceous rock that can be used, & it has been recorded that more tinderboxes were found to contain Agate than those containing flint.
Rarely would anyone shoot at night, unless they were using torches from a canoe on a river. Rain is not a problem if you have experience using a flintlock. Many people in the US may well be using inline percussion rifles, but far more people in the US are using flintlocks for Living History, Historical Trekking & Reenactment. These same people are also using flintlocks for hunting.
If the lock breaks on a percussion rifle, unless you have spare parts, it is no longer of any use accept for perhaps a club. A flintlock on the other hand can still be used.
I have nothing against the use of a bow, unless it is a compound bow which is unsuited to long term wilderness living. A crossbow on the other hand would make a fine hunting tool; not as good for defence as a gun, but at least with a traditional bow or crossbow you can replace the string from nature. If one was a part of a group, then I would recommend someone carrying a modern firearm, but in my opinion modern guns in a **** situation should be kept for defence only.
Most game food will be supplied by the use of a trap line. Whilst this has some drawbacks in a **** survival situation, it is still the most economical way to obtain food.
Keith.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
You are not quite correct in your assumptions Nomad. The percussion gun was only popular in areas where percussion caps were available, that did NOT include wilderness areas. Mountain Men/Trappers did not convert to percussion, they kept their flintlocks. Flint is not the only siliceous rock that can be used, & it has been recorded that more tinderboxes were found to contain Agate than those containing flint.
Rarely would anyone shoot at night, unless they were using torches from a canoe on a river. Rain is not a problem if you have experience using a flintlock. Many people in the US may well be using inline percussion rifles, but far more people in the US are using flintlocks for Living History, Historical Trekking & Reenactment. These same people are also using flintlocks for hunting.
If the lock breaks on a percussion rifle, unless you have spare parts, it is no longer of any use accept for perhaps a club. A flintlock on the other hand can still be used.
I have nothing against the use of a bow, unless it is a compound bow which is unsuited to long term wilderness living. A crossbow on the other hand would make a fine hunting tool; not as good for defence as a gun, but at least with a traditional bow or crossbow you can replace the string from nature. If one was a part of a group, then I would recommend someone carrying a modern firearm, but in my opinion modern guns in a **** situation should be kept for defence only.
Most game food will be supplied by the use of a trap line. Whilst this has some drawbacks in a **** survival situation, it is still the most economical way to obtain food.
Keith.

I've already run the gamut many moons ago of the gear path you are on. I'll address your points.

The mountain men converted to percussion and the whole frontier converted to percussion because the beaver trade didn't last that long, there was a lot of fighting, and percussion caps are simply better in every way. The glory days of the beaver fur trade, the fad which drove a frontier culture and fueled it with money and trade goods, really ended in the 1830's, relatively soon into the percussion era, and the mountain men became guides, typically for the Army or for settler wagon trains. Both of those often meant fighting. Furthermore, the advent of the revolver, which first appeared in 1836 combined with all of the fighting, helped to really accelerate the move towards percussion caps.

Keep in mind that America typically fights a major war every 20 or 30 years, with usually a lot of smaller fights in between. Wars drive technology, and the military tends to heavily influence what guns American civilians use. Much of the use of guns on the frontier was for fighting, especially on the early frontier, which included the fighting with the Indians and the Mexican War. Then came the Civil War, followed by more wars with the Indians, especially the large plains tribes. All of these wars were fought over a vast area of land in all sorts of weather.

For most things, including fighting, percussion caps are far, far superior over a flintlock. Kit Carson's lopsided victory during the later fur trade era in a wild fight with a Comanche force that outnumbered him almost 20:1 showed everyone just how effective repeating arms were, and repeating arms of the day relied upon percussion caps. After the Civil War, percussion caps were on their way out and many percussion revolvers were converted to fire cartridges.

Yes, you can use other types of rock in a flintlock, but really it's not that great. But yes, you might have some non-flint in your area that might get you by. Just keep in mind that every time you fire you add a bit more wear to the frizzen. Or, you can simply do what most people did on the frontier during most of the 19th Century and carry a supply of percussion caps.

When it comes to accuracy, the old flintlock smoothbore trade muskets really sucked. It was said that a man hit at over 60 yards with a ball fired from one was truly unfortunate. The Indians simply adapted the musket to their hunting tactics. Out in the west and on the plains a typical Indian musket had the barrel chopped to about 14 inches by the gunsmith at the trading fort. They would kill a buffalo by riding up to one like a mad man and firing into it point blank. They never really got a grasp on long range accuracy and any rifle they got soon turned into a smoothbore due to their common practice of using river gravel as birdshot.

The main benefit of a flintlock now, aside from historical hobbyists, is to have something which goes bang that gets outside of legal restrictions. Unless it's a rifle you really don't get any real range benefits over a modern crossbow, and in fact a modern crossbow has a higher rate of fire, less noise, and it's more weatherproof. It's better under low light conditions and it's typically far more accurate than a smoothbore flintlock.

All US states except Oregon now allow various types of hunting with crossbows. As a result, crossbow technology here is rapidly getting more impressive with every passing year. Furthermore, in just about every US state, American law dictates that for hunting the minimum legal draw weight on a crossbow is 120 pounds (for a regular bow it's 40 pounds). This means that virtually every production crossbow made here is at least that strong. That means out of almost any American made hunting crossbow, a crossbow bolt with a broadhead will typically go completely through a deer, and that is just a recurve, not a compound. Some of the compound crossbows push a bolt that is more of an arrow downrange at over 400 feet per second. Most crossbows now are sold with a scope and they are accurate enough to take advantage of it.

So, why use a smoothbore flintlock other than for legal reasons? If crossbows are illegal where you are (what in Australia isn't illegal nowadays), just get a regular bow.

In the USA flintlocks are mainly a niche item with collectors and historical recreationists. They really are not that practical for hunting, and in wet weather they truly suck. I've also fired them at night before and all I saw were spots for a while. Only one state requires their use during muzzleloader season.

Hunters with modern muzzleloaders probably outnumber historical recreationists 1000:1. Furthermore, unlike a modern cartridge firearm a modern muzzleloader or a crossbow doesn't require any paperwork or a background check in most US states. No one knows you have it and it's not that uncommon to see one used during regular modern firearms season due to expense, one gun for two seasons. For example, go into any almost Walmart in the US southeast and you will find modern inline muzzleloaders for sale.

Even amongst the recreationists, at buckskinning events like a modern day mountain man rendezvous most of the guns are caplocks.

For example, I can take you to any sporting goods store in Texas and get you a bow, a muzzleloader, a modern firearm, or a crossbow. However, if you wanted to get a flintlock, you will have to seriously look, or order one online.

As for parts, a flintlock actually has more parts than a caplock, and more parts means more that can break. There is a reason gunsmiths were in demand at every trading post. There is also a reason most mountain men carried more than one gun. In fact, the gun most often carried across their saddle horn while riding was actually a double barrel shotgun. The rifles rode in scabbards. Most usually also had a pistol or two.

Ask yourself, just how much is a can of percussion caps and how compactly can they be stored vs how much you actually shoot a flintlock? Even caplocks were not fired that much back in the day. When the lever action Henry rifle came out they called it the 'gun you loaded on Sunday and fired all week'. Once you get to that point it's a natural step to just transition to 209 primers which is what most new muzzleloaders in the USA currently use now. You can even get kits to retrofit older caplocks.

So, once you leave the need for being historically accurate and if you are not hemmed in by insane legal restrictions, for long term sustainability muzzleloaders of any kind really start to pale vs a break action or pump action shotgun that uses shotgun shells which you can reload. It's basically all of the same ammo components in a much more convenient, ready to load package. Furthermore a modern shotgun you can add a rifled barrel or a rifled choke and get some real accuracy out of slugs and pumpkin balls.

Really, for long term sustainability no matter what, aside from a shotgun and a small bore air rifle, get a good, professionally made bow and learn to use it well. Learn to make arrows.

Check out the folding bow these guys sell. I have one and it is extremely useful and handy. http://www.goprimalnow.com
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
...... Once you get to that point it's a natural step to just transition to 209 primers which is what most new muzzleloaders in the USA currently use now.....

Actually most of us use #11; or is that the same thing as 209 shotgun primers?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
No, that is a percussion cap. Most new inlines sold these days use 209 shotgun primers. It's a more weather resistant setup and a more positive ignition.

I didn't think they were the same but I thought it worth asking. Then no, most of us don't use that around here. We still use #1 percussion caps.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
No, that is a percussion cap. Most new inlines sold these days use 209 shotgun primers. It's a more weather resistant setup and a more positive ignition.

I didn't think they were the same but I thought it worth asking. Then no, most of us don't use that around here. We still use #1 percussion caps. AT least as of now, it might catch up here as well.
 
I've already run the gamut many moons ago of the gear path you are on. I'll address your points.

The mountain men converted to percussion and the whole frontier converted to percussion because the beaver trade didn't last that long, there was a lot of fighting, and percussion caps are simply better in every way. The glory days of the beaver fur trade, the fad which drove a frontier culture and fueled it with money and trade goods, really ended in the 1830's, relatively soon into the percussion era, and the mountain men became guides, typically for the Army or for settler wagon trains. Both of those often meant fighting. Furthermore, the advent of the revolver, which first appeared in 1836 combined with all of the fighting, helped to really accelerate the move towards percussion caps.

Keep in mind that America typically fights a major war every 20 or 30 years, with usually a lot of smaller fights in between. Wars drive technology, and the military tends to heavily influence what guns American civilians use. Much of the use of guns on the frontier was for fighting, especially on the early frontier, which included the fighting with the Indians and the Mexican War. Then came the Civil War, followed by more wars with the Indians, especially the large plains tribes. All of these wars were fought over a vast area of land in all sorts of weather.

For most things, including fighting, percussion caps are far, far superior over a flintlock. Kit Carson's lopsided victory during the later fur trade era in a wild fight with a Comanche force that outnumbered him almost 20:1 showed everyone just how effective repeating arms were, and repeating arms of the day relied upon percussion caps. After the Civil War, percussion caps were on their way out and many percussion revolvers were converted to fire cartridges.

Yes, you can use other types of rock in a flintlock, but really it's not that great. But yes, you might have some non-flint in your area that might get you by. Just keep in mind that every time you fire you add a bit more wear to the frizzen. Or, you can simply do what most people did on the frontier during most of the 19th Century and carry a supply of percussion caps.

When it comes to accuracy, the old flintlock smoothbore trade muskets really sucked. It was said that a man hit at over 60 yards with a ball fired from one was truly unfortunate. The Indians simply adapted the musket to their hunting tactics. Out in the west and on the plains a typical Indian musket had the barrel chopped to about 14 inches by the gunsmith at the trading fort. They would kill a buffalo by riding up to one like a mad man and firing into it point blank. They never really got a grasp on long range accuracy and any rifle they got soon turned into a smoothbore due to their common practice of using river gravel as birdshot.

The main benefit of a flintlock now, aside from historical hobbyists, is to have something which goes bang that gets outside of legal restrictions. Unless it's a rifle you really don't get any real range benefits over a modern crossbow, and in fact a modern crossbow has a higher rate of fire, less noise, and it's more weatherproof. It's better under low light conditions and it's typically far more accurate than a smoothbore flintlock.

All US states except Oregon now allow various types of hunting with crossbows. As a result, crossbow technology here is rapidly getting more impressive with every passing year. Furthermore, in just about every US state, American law dictates that for hunting the minimum legal draw weight on a crossbow is 120 pounds (for a regular bow it's 40 pounds). This means that virtually every production crossbow made here is at least that strong. That means out of almost any American made hunting crossbow, a crossbow bolt with a broadhead will typically go completely through a deer, and that is just a recurve, not a compound. Some of the compound crossbows push a bolt that is more of an arrow downrange at over 400 feet per second. Most crossbows now are sold with a scope and they are accurate enough to take advantage of it.

So, why use a smoothbore flintlock other than for legal reasons? If crossbows are illegal where you are (what in Australia isn't illegal nowadays), just get a regular bow.

In the USA flintlocks are mainly a niche item with collectors and historical recreationists. They really are not that practical for hunting, and in wet weather they truly suck. I've also fired them at night before and all I saw were spots for a while. Only one state requires their use during muzzleloader season.

Hunters with modern muzzleloaders probably outnumber historical recreationists 1000:1. Furthermore, unlike a modern cartridge firearm a modern muzzleloader or a crossbow doesn't require any paperwork or a background check in most US states. No one knows you have it and it's not that uncommon to see one used during regular modern firearms season due to expense, one gun for two seasons. For example, go into any almost Walmart in the US southeast and you will find modern inline muzzleloaders for sale.

Even amongst the recreationists, at buckskinning events like a modern day mountain man rendezvous most of the guns are caplocks.

For example, I can take you to any sporting goods store in Texas and get you a bow, a muzzleloader, a modern firearm, or a crossbow. However, if you wanted to get a flintlock, you will have to seriously look, or order one online.

As for parts, a flintlock actually has more parts than a caplock, and more parts means more that can break. There is a reason gunsmiths were in demand at every trading post. There is also a reason most mountain men carried more than one gun. In fact, the gun most often carried across their saddle horn while riding was actually a double barrel shotgun. The rifles rode in scabbards. Most usually also had a pistol or two.

Ask yourself, just how much is a can of percussion caps and how compactly can they be stored vs how much you actually shoot a flintlock? Even caplocks were not fired that much back in the day. When the lever action Henry rifle came out they called it the 'gun you loaded on Sunday and fired all week'. Once you get to that point it's a natural step to just transition to 209 primers which is what most new muzzleloaders in the USA currently use now. You can even get kits to retrofit older caplocks.

So, once you leave the need for being historically accurate and if you are not hemmed in by insane legal restrictions, for long term sustainability muzzleloaders of any kind really start to pale vs a break action or pump action shotgun that uses shotgun shells which you can reload. It's basically all of the same ammo components in a much more convenient, ready to load package. Furthermore a modern shotgun you can add a rifled barrel or a rifled choke and get some real accuracy out of slugs and pumpkin balls.

Really, for long term sustainability no matter what, aside from a shotgun and a small bore air rifle, get a good, professionally made bow and learn to use it well. Learn to make arrows.

Check out the folding bow these guys sell. I have one and it is extremely useful and handy. http://www.goprimalnow.com

Sorry, but you have your dates wrong. The Rendezvous period ran from 1825 to 1840, just 15 years. The beaver trade was coming to an end then, but some trappers stayed in the trade.
Very little difference in the number of lock parts between percussion & flintlock, & the number of parts has nothing to do with the versatility or the lack of in either lock. Obviously you do not have your facts straight, so I will not bother continuing this discussion with you, it would be time consuming & pointless.
Best of luck.
Keith.
 

Trotsky

Full Member
As someone who doesn't have a firearms licence and would be unlikely to get hold on one in my present position I would likely just stick by my trusty .22 Air Arms TX200, I can bag food with that if required and not draw attention to myself as it's got a built in silencer. The only maintenance it needs is an occasional oiling and if ammunition should run short it's not beyond my abilities to make my own pellets once I'd crafted a mould suitable. All in all I think it's a preferable set up as it's simple and simple means less to go wrong. Black powder etc may be fun but, it's more complicated, requires carrying more and more work making materials like the powder, the shot, sourcing and preparing the flints. You could make many more pellets per ounce of lead than you could balls for a musket or any firearm. I also have a bow I could fall back on if required, though I would be disinclined to use that for hunting of any sort as I couldn't guarantee a clean kill like I could with the air rifle. It would more likely be a self defence weapon in some end of the world setting that seem to fascinate some people.
This is all besides the point though, stalking prey with any weapon in hand seems rather masochistic when you could set some traps and use the time and energy elsewhere and if you're in a survival setting energy is something you want to preserve. But that's just my thoughts, it doesn't mean it's right by any means and everyone is free to go their own way and if a flintlock is how you want to do it who am I to try and stop you?
 
And no attention paid to the poor old matchlock? I have an Indian one and wondered about having it proofed especially after seeing this film. Just load up and light it with match cord or many other types of tinder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/matchlocks/matchlocks.htm

Good day boatman. Actually not quite so. If a flintlock should have lock problems, & this is rare (broken main spring or other), & you do not carry spare springs, then the lock is easily converted to matchlock or tinderlock & you can continue using the gun.
Regards, Keith.
 
As someone who doesn't have a firearms licence and would be unlikely to get hold on one in my present position I would likely just stick by my trusty .22 Air Arms TX200, I can bag food with that if required and not draw attention to myself as it's got a built in silencer. The only maintenance it needs is an occasional oiling and if ammunition should run short it's not beyond my abilities to make my own pellets once I'd crafted a mould suitable. All in all I think it's a preferable set up as it's simple and simple means less to go wrong. Black powder etc may be fun but, it's more complicated, requires carrying more and more work making materials like the powder, the shot, sourcing and preparing the flints. You could make many more pellets per ounce of lead than you could balls for a musket or any firearm. I also have a bow I could fall back on if required, though I would be disinclined to use that for hunting of any sort as I couldn't guarantee a clean kill like I could with the air rifle. It would more likely be a self defence weapon in some end of the world setting that seem to fascinate some people.
This is all besides the point though, stalking prey with any weapon in hand seems rather masochistic when you could set some traps and use the time and energy elsewhere and if you're in a survival setting energy is something you want to preserve. But that's just my thoughts, it doesn't mean it's right by any means and everyone is free to go their own way and if a flintlock is how you want to do it who am I to try and stop you?

Good post, & I totally agree. A very good option.
Regards, Keith.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
8
78
Cornwall
Good day boatman. Actually not quite so. If a flintlock should have lock problems, & this is rare (broken main spring or other), & you do not carry spare springs, then the lock is easily converted to matchlock or tinderlock & you can continue using the gun.
Regards, Keith.

Good evening Mister Wolf, was aware of match firing a flintlock. My favourite, different hunting firearm is the Tibetan matchlock operated by two men and using semi-precious pebble as ammunition, will try and find the reference.
 
Good evening Mister Wolf, was aware of match firing a flintlock. My favourite, different hunting firearm is the Tibetan matchlock operated by two men and using semi-precious pebble as ammunition, will try and find the reference.

Many thanks for this information boatman, very interesting. I would love to learn more about this if you can find the reference.
Regards, Keith.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
Sorry, but you have your dates wrong. The Rendezvous period ran from 1825 to 1840, just 15 years.....

It actually ran much longer: from 1810 to the 1880s. But as both you and mrostov say, the real height of it was a shorter period ending decades before the Civil War.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
As someone who doesn't have a firearms licence and would be unlikely to get hold on one in my present position I would likely just stick by my trusty .22 Air Arms TX200, I can bag food with that if required and not draw attention to myself as it's got a built in silencer. The only maintenance it needs is an occasional oiling and if ammunition should run short it's not beyond my abilities to make my own pellets once I'd crafted a mould suitable. All in all I think it's a preferable set up as it's simple and simple means less to go wrong. Black powder etc may be fun but, it's more complicated, requires carrying more and more work making materials like the powder, the shot, sourcing and preparing the flints. You could make many more pellets per ounce of lead than you could balls for a musket or any firearm. I also have a bow I could fall back on if required, though I would be disinclined to use that for hunting of any sort as I couldn't guarantee a clean kill like I could with the air rifle. It would more likely be a self defence weapon in some end of the world setting that seem to fascinate some people.
This is all besides the point though, stalking prey with any weapon in hand seems rather masochistic when you could set some traps and use the time and energy elsewhere and if you're in a survival setting energy is something you want to preserve. But that's just my thoughts, it doesn't mean it's right by any means and everyone is free to go their own way and if a flintlock is how you want to do it who am I to try and stop you?


Modern shot pellets aren't molded; they're extruded. Quite a bit more complex than molding a musket ball.

I can't "guarantee" a clean kill with ANY weapon. That said, I'm confident enough with a bow at close range. Likewise with a shotgun using buckshot (either modern or muzzle loading) on deer or hog sized game or lesser shot for lesser game. Bigger game with a bow or swithing the shotgun to slugs (or better still, sabots)

Yes trapping should be the mainstay for taking most smaller land creatures. Not sure I'd want to try trapping bear though. You also left out fishing; trot lines and bank hooks produce an awful lot of good food. So does gigging or cast netting.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Sorry, but you have your dates wrong. The Rendezvous period ran from 1825 to 1840, just 15 years. The beaver trade was coming to an end then, but some trappers stayed in the trade.

No, my dates aren't wrong. The rendezvous in 1840 was simply the last rendezvous. It was the last one because the Rocky Mountain fur trade was almost completely dead and had been dying a rapid death since the mid-1830's. By the time of the 1840 rendezvous not many people were left who made a living trapping beaver.

John Jakob Astor saw the writing on the wall and withdrew from the American Fur Company in 1834. By 1836 the Rocky Mountain fur trade was in a steep decline. The beaver populations had been decimated, the beaver felt hat was falling out of fashion in favor of silk, and much cheaper nutria fur began coming out of South America. As a side note, this led to the introduction of the nutria into the Atlantic coastal regions of the USA and now they cannot exterminate the things fast enough.

Very little difference in the number of lock parts between percussion & flintlock, & the number of parts has nothing to do with the versatility or the lack of in either lock. Obviously you do not have your facts straight, so I will not bother continuing this discussion with you, it would be time consuming & pointless.
Best of luck.
Keith.

I have my facts straight. You are simply doing what they call in the stock market 'talking your position'. You are in a legal toe jam because the Australian government has gone a bit bonkers on weapons. Seriously, they have outlawed slingshots. That is obscenely nuts.

Their laws have pushed you into the realm of a modern peasant in Africa or India where you are relegated to a 400 year old firearms design that went hopelessly obsolete 200 years ago. The only reason they let you have it so easily is simply because it is so obsolete. Yes, you can get by with your smoothbore flintlock, but lets not have illusions about it.

BTW: You can reload spent shotgun shells, reprime the primers if need be, and you can make a functional shotgun out of two pieces of pipe and a board carved into a stock. That is actually legal here. There you probably need a special Class XVIII permit plus a DNA sample on deposit for a squirt gun.

The flintlock isn't new to me. I grew up in a family that was very much into the buckskinning culture. I shot my first muzzleloader in grade school. I'm very familiar with the rock lock. The last time I handled one was about two weeks ago, but it wasn't a smoothbore, it was a rifle. I have no nostalgia nor do I have any illusions about them.

A flintlock does have more parts. You are forgetting that the extra parts are the frizzen, the frizzen spring, and the pieces of the jaws which holds the flint. All of these parts see a lot of use in the weapon.

I'll maintain what I said. A flintlock smoothbore has use as a fowler or a short range blunderbuss. However, a modern bow outclasses it in many ways. A modern crossbow totally outclasses it in every category except as a fowler.

However, it's limitations as a fowler is why percussion caps were invented by a Scottish reverend in the first place. The birds could see the flash and smoke of the lock and would try and dive out of the way before the shot hit them. That was his motivation to develop the percussion cap.

My advice is to simply just get whatever idiotic license your obnoxious government wants you to have and buy an inexpensive break open shotgun like an H&R Topper. Have the barrel chopped down to 18 or 20 inches if that is legal there, and have it threaded for chokes. Start accumulating 209 primers and empty hulls for long term self sufficiency. You will be happier in the long run.

BTW, Magtech in Brazil exports all-brass shotgun shells. They come ready for a large pistol primer, but you can simply drill out the primer pockets to take a 209 primer. You can get molds from Lee for a 12 ga 'keyed slug' and a .69 cal round ball. The 3/4oz keyed slug is a bit more accurate than the 1oz. For the 1oz, .69 cal round ball (pumpkin ball) put on a rifled choke tube and you will get surprising accuracy out of the shotgun, far more then you will out of your smoothbore flintlock.
 
Last edited:

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
......BTW: You can reload spent shotgun shells, reprime the primers if need be, and you can make a functional shotgun out of two pieces of pipe and a board carved into a stock. That is actually legal here.......

Ummm. No. Making your own shotgun is definitely not legal here. Not without an FFL. It falls in the category of "Manufacture" in the line I underlined below:
traces.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instructions for Form 7 - Application for Federal Firearms License

Below you will find links to all the required documents that are necessary to ensure a complete application. Applicants may print forms on standard white paper. In addition to the below documents, applications must be accompanied by one 2"x2" photo of each Responsible Person (RP) on the license, and one FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) for each RP on the license.

ATF F 5310.12 (Form 7) - Application for Federal Firearm License (FFL)
FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) Instructions and Example

Important Notice to Applicants for Federal Firearms License (FFL)

-To receive a license as a dealer (including pawnbrokers & gunsmiths), importer, or manufacturer of firearms, you must intend to engage in a firearms business.
- You can expect to be contacted by an ATF officer during the application process.
- You will be required to prepare and keep detailed records of all firearms transactions.
- Your records and premises will be subject to inspection by ATF officers.
- ATF notifies State and local authorities regarding applicants for Federal firearms licenses.
- State laws or local ordinances may require additional licenses or permits for firearms licenses.
- Other State or local requirements, such as cash bonds, liability insurance, zoning restrictions, collection of sales taxes, etc., may also apply to your proposed firearms business. You should contact your State and local authorities for specific information on their requirements.
- Firearms licensees should contact the Internal Revenue Service for information regarding business operations and Federal income taxes.
- When requested by ATF, licensees are required to furnish information regarding firearms traces.
 
Last edited:

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Actually it is legal is you don't sell it. You only need a manufacturer's license if you sell any guns you manufacture. You have the right to make your own firearms and it's legal.

Ummm. No. Making your own shotgun is definitely not legal here. Not without an FFL. It falls in the category of "Manufacture" in the line I underlined below:
traces.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instructions for Form 7 - Application for Federal Firearms License

Below you will find links to all the required documents that are necessary to ensure a complete application. Applicants may print forms on standard white paper. In addition to the below documents, applications must be accompanied by one 2"x2" photo of each Responsible Person (RP) on the license, and one FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) for each RP on the license.

ATF F 5310.12 (Form 7) - Application for Federal Firearm License (FFL)
FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) Instructions and Example

Important Notice to Applicants for Federal Firearms License (FFL)

-To receive a license as a dealer (including pawnbrokers & gunsmiths), importer, or manufacturer of firearms, you must intend to engage in a firearms business.
- You can expect to be contacted by an ATF officer during the application process.
- You will be required to prepare and keep detailed records of all firearms transactions.
- Your records and premises will be subject to inspection by ATF officers.
- ATF notifies State and local authorities regarding applicants for Federal firearms licenses.
- State laws or local ordinances may require additional licenses or permits for firearms licenses.
- Other State or local requirements, such as cash bonds, liability insurance, zoning restrictions, collection of sales taxes, etc., may also apply to your proposed firearms business. You should contact your State and local authorities for specific information on their requirements.
- Firearms licensees should contact the Internal Revenue Service for information regarding business operations and Federal income taxes.
- When requested by ATF, licensees are required to furnish information regarding firearms traces.
 

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