Tangled Web.

[TeeDee]

An odd question to pose and there maybe no way to know - But I thought I would ask as there are some obscure studies and experiments out there.

Are Humans the only species that are known to Lie and deceive??

I guess the closest branch of related study will be the Monkeys and great apes but there maybe other known studies.

So do any other creatures intentionally lie ? and how do we know? Examples of lying must be hard to prove outside of the understood vocal or written word but how about examples of physical manipulation and lying?

 

[HorseGuy]

Here are some animals which pretend to be other animals. Not quite lying but close.
Merry Christmas.

https://malevus.com/animals-that-pretend-to-be-other-creatures/

 

[demented dale]

An odd question to pose and there maybe no way to know - But I thought I would ask as there are some obscure studies and experiments out there.

Are Humans the only species that are known to Lie and deceive??

I guess the closest branch of related study will be the Monkeys and great apes but there maybe other known studies.

So do any other creatures intentionally lie ? and how do we know? Examples of lying must be hard to prove outside of the understood vocal or written word but how about examples of physical manipulation and lying?

Shapeshifting lizards form the Draco Star System are renowned for being untruthful. It is easy to catch them out as the the exact opposite of everything they say always happens. DD xxxxx

 

[Billy-o]

Has there been a squabble over who agreed to cook dinner today

I watched as our collie was chased a bit by two moderately show-off, kind of aggressive doggies (youthfully self-confident might be the better term - but menacing enough, nevertheless). Cornered by a bend in the river, she rolled on her back in submission. One of the dogs approached her but let out the loudest yelp I ever heard when our girl nipped him. This turned out to be her regular mode of dealing with unwanted attentions.

There are tons of insects lie about their stinging capacity too ... moths that look like wasps, spiders that look like ants, hoverflies!

 

[Bhod]

Some animals feign death to protect against predators, that could be classed as deceit/lying.

Apparent death - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Chris]

I know my dog will deliberately try to hide what he is doing in order to achieve a goal.

There are some creatures which even from an evolutionary perspective are designed to deceive. Perhaps not sentient thought, but certainly deception has been baked in through evolutionary pressure.

 

[Pattree]

This is a very interesting question and as you say, extremely difficult to test.

There are plenty of examples of deception and mimicry in both appearance and sound but are these deliberate? Presumably a lie has to be deliberate and for a purpose even if it is just self aggrandisement.

You would first need to understand what the liar intended to misinterpret. Then you would need to know how it intended that its lie should be interpreted and possibly what might be its (deliberate) motivation.

Bears have been known to stand on rocks and branches so that they can scrape markers on tree trunks that give the impression that they are larger than they are.

I have no idea how you could discover whether the colours flashed by a squid or whale song were deliberate falsehoods.

If it was ever understood that a species practiced irony you’d be in a hell of a mess.

This is just the sort of question that people send to New Scientist for other readers to answer.

lastword@newscientist.com

Questions should be scientific enquiries about everyday phenomena, and both questions or answers should be concise. We reserve the right to edit items for clarity and style. Please include a postal address, daytime telephone number and email address.

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[TeeDee]

This is a very interesting question and as you say, extremely difficult to test.

There are plenty of examples of deception and mimicry in both appearance and sound but are these deliberate? Presumably a lie has to be deliberate and for a purpose even if it is just self aggrandisement.

You would first need to understand what the liar intended to misinterpret. Then you would need to know how it intended that its lie should be interpreted and possibly what might be its (deliberate) motivation.

Bears have been known to stand on rocks and branches so that they can scrape markers on tree trunks that give the impression that they are larger than they are.

I have no idea how you could discover whether the colours flashed by a squid or whale song were deliberate falsehoods.

If it was ever understood that a species practiced irony you’d be in a hell of a mess.

This is just the sort of question that people send to New Scientist for other readers to answer.

lastword@newscientist.com

Questions should be scientific enquiries about everyday phenomena, and both questions or answers should be concise. We reserve the right to edit items for clarity and style. Please include a postal address, daytime telephone number and email address.

New Scientist Ltd retains total editorial control over the published content and reserves all rights to reuse question and answer material that has been submitted by readers in any medium or in any format.

I wonder if they have ever tested it with great apes/monkeys regarding food - I've heard of studies where if two Chimps are kept in separated containers and one chimp is given an amount of food ( visible to both chimps ) the chimp with food will share it ( although it doesn't 'have' to do so) so in a way displaying a form of Altruism.

Or at least we from the outside looking in view it that way - we project a human emotion/concept of altruism onto some act.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Gorillas & chimpanzees in captivity have been seen to use deception, such when finding a tasty titbit, they will pretend they haven't found anything if others are watching them.
Dogs too can deceive. I used to have a dog, who when he saw another dog approaching & he was fed up with going through the greeting ritual (my interpretation) he would suddenly pretend he was busy investigating some scrap of ground. It worked too, the other dog(s) usually just walked past.
I have seen cows use some pretty cunning tactics to avoid giving signals to the rest of the herd that they had found something interesting to eat.
Any mammal living in a social group probably uses some kind of deception from time to time.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Sorry, double post.

 

[oldtimer]

We used to have two ducks. If one found a juicy titbit it would stand on it until the other duck's attention was elsewhere before eating it thus avoiding the obligation to share.

 

[TeeDee]

We used to have two ducks. If one found a juicy titbit it would stand on it until the other duck's attention was elsewhere before eating it thus avoiding the obligation to share.

Whilst I find this funny , and the other examples provided - is it really lying?

Protecting or hiding something so you can consume all to yourself safely I don't think is 'lying' , more selfishness.

I don't think thats an example of an obligation to feel a need to share ( altruism etc ) - just a 'me first' type drive.

Lying I think is more complex and maybe harder to prove - even the examples of animals feigning death , whilst I can appreciate its not presenting the truth - its more a basic survival mechanism.

Lying I think must take into account what one knows, extrapolate and take into account what another(s) may know ( or not ) and intentionally act in a way to hide that or deceive?

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Whilst I find this funny , and the other examples provided - is it really lying?

Lying is verbal, god gave humans speech so they can lie. If animals lie through verbal communication would be much harder to prove. Some gorillas have been taught sign language but I don't know if they are capable of lying using that language but then, an animal using a human language, completely immersed in the human world may not be a good example.

 

[TeeDee]

An odd question to pose and there maybe no way to know - But I thought I would ask as there are some obscure studies and experiments out there.

Are Humans the only species that are known to Lie and deceive??

I guess the closest branch of related study will be the Monkeys and great apes but there maybe other known studies.

So do any other creatures intentionally lie ? and how do we know? Examples of lying must be hard to prove outside of the understood vocal or written word but how about examples of physical manipulation and lying?

Lying is verbal, god gave humans speech so they can lie. If animals lie through verbal communication would be much harder to prove. Some gorillas have been taught sign language but I don't know if they are capable of lying using that language but then, an animal using a human language, completely immersed in the human world may not be a good example.

Yep. Aware of that - so unless we can get a group of talking Parrots involved ( I'm game.. ) its a hard one to prove or disprove.

I guess I'm asking is Lying a purely Human venture.

( Going to leave theology out of it unless we can do a Dr Doolittle. )

 

[HillBill]

Deception is extremely common in the animal world. From the cuckoo to the hawk moth caterpillar, from the Orchid Mantis to the Opossum playing possum.

Lying? I wouldn't say so, as that is verbal and deliberate. Saying that, my dog does lie. He's a springer, and loves having a good sniff at stuff. Sometimes, when he's found something he really wants to sniff at, and i tell him to come on. He will take the 'having a poo' position, while continuing to sniff, and when i've gone over to investigate, there was no poo. He's done this many times. Is that a lie? as he knows hes only doing it so he can sniff something for longer, with no intention of having a poo.

 

[TeeDee]

I think as you say Deception , mimicry are group species behaviours - not sure if Possums are 'taught' to " Play Possum" from their family but I think its an inherent survival tactic ingrained and encoded.

Same with the Cuckoo. Ingrained behaviour from birth.


Which I guess makes me think that 'Lying' means it needs to be a individual based decision ( conscious ) of a/in a moment.
If all of a species lied in certain ways ( I'm just providing a hypothetical scenario ) does that mean it is lying or group behaviour ?


So , and I still appreciate its an exceptionally difficult question to answer as it would seem to need to be observed behaviour based upon an individuals act of lying to another species member for personal gain.
Unless we understood a species at a vocal level.

 

[HorseGuy]

Whenever anyone goes into the kitchen my cat always acts like she is starving no matter how many times she's already been fed.

 

[Tengu]

Dogs are expert liars.

I suspect all social animals can lie very well.

 

[C_Claycomb]

cats telling everyone they meet that they are cold, staving, abandoned waifs, when in fact they have a home and were given a good meal just that morning!

Cats sitting on the stairs, looking like they are completely disinterested in the dog nervously wanting to pass. Dog finally gets courage to pass, and when nearly passed, cat reaches out and swats it.

Cuttlefish, mating. Small males pretend to be females in order to sidle up to a female in company with a large male to mate. I think females also lie, half coloured to repel, half coloured to attract.

Some snakes do something similar.

Hedge sparrow females will offer themselves to low ranking males, but high ranking males peck out the low rank deposits. This means the chicks carry genes from high ranking males peck males, but the low ranks help feed them like they are their own.
Cuckoo are deceptive by instinct and evolution.

Octopus use deception…and may have humour.

Dogs known to pretend that healed injuries still hurt in order to continue receiving sympathy.

 

[grainweevil]

Alas (or perhaps hurrah), my parrots don't talk English, but have rather chosen to develop a language all their own, which is much more intelligent. Despite this they are well able to convey to this poor dumb monkey that it certainly wasn't them who ate their breakfast/pulled that thing down/left all that chewed cardboard all over the floor etc etc. Of course there is an outside chance some utterly strange parrot snuck in and actually did these things as they claim, and they're not lying at all. But I'll be honest, I have doubts.