Stick tangs and Full tangs. Advantages and Disadvantages

[morch]

Come on guys, don't you think this has ruined a, from a 'no idea about knives' guy, interesting thread? He never said he was an expert in knives, and maybe his experiences go against the 'considered opinion' but he was just saying, maybe by way of conversation, round the fire like, which is surely what this forum is about. Just seems to me that its heading for character assassination.

Dave

 

[JonathanD]

Come on guys, don't you think this has ruined a, from a 'no idea about knives' guy, interesting thread? He never said he was an expert in knives, and maybe his experiences go against the 'considered opinion' but he was just saying, maybe by way of conversation, round the fire like, which is surely what this forum is about. Just seems to me that its heading for character assassination.

Dave

Not at all. It was a character assassination upon Helle that has now been shown to have been unfounded in the extreme. It's internet rumours like that, that ruin reputations and snowball. It also shows that the failure of those stick tang knives, whatever make it was, was also unfounded. It's best not to accept posts on face value when unsubstantiated third party information is involved, and here it has been proven very strongly indeed. Nothing against Samon, just against perpetuating rumour and unfounded stories about product and design failure.

 

[sapper1]

Much the same as manufacturer assasination with absolutely no solid info or facts?

 

[Samon]

If I were to get a new knife I'd like a metal butt cap so it would probably be a broad stick tang, tbh I assumed tang breakages were alot more common otherwise I might have worded what I heard a bit differently.


They must have been talking crap then, becasue I can't even find any pictures on google or anything..

 

[sapper1]

We all listen to stuff from others mate,it's not always right but it doesn't hurt to check sometimes before jumping in feet first with sweeping statements that are unfounded.

 

[Samon]

Ok fair enough, the only reliable evidence of stick tang breakage is on the video, they clearly take more abuse than sceptics might think as google/forums have shown and idle chit chat with pikey labourers isn't always a great source for advice

 

[Xunil]

I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the Bark River link I posted that suggests an easy to repeat method of introducing failure (regardless of tang type).

I've been searching my memory for instances of failure and I can recall a couple;

Some years ago I broke a lovely (full tang) Damascus knife when I dropped it on some rocks and an ATV drove over it, cross-ways. I still have the bits of that one somewhere.

I broke another full tang knife by throwing it into a standing dead Oak tree. High blade hardness never goes hand in hand with knife throwing.

I broke a sword once before I fully understood rounded shoulders and that not using them causes stress fractures during heat treating.

I chipped an edge once by doing something stupid with it.

The common denominator in the above cases was me.

I don't recall ever having a blade fail due to materials.

 

[Toddy]

My knife delaminated because the weld wasn't sound, not because I was using it cackhandedly.
I have also seen three broken tipped Buck knives, saw one happening in front of me, because to keep them sharp they're too hard for many bushcrafty/daily at hand knife, tasks.

JD's machete was also a case of a materials failure.....kind of more dramatic than my tree tie cutting though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Siberianfury]

i did a test some time ago, i handled a lauri 95 blade in a peice of birch, no bolsters, seccured tang nothing, just steel, wood and epoxy. anyway the purpose of this was to see if i could break the handle under using the knife for battoning, no matter how hard i tried, even bashing the handle i couldnt break it, and ended up sawing the handle off to reteive the blade.

i have heard of a couple stick tangs breaking, including helle's apart from a leuku my mate handled with ash and no bolster, it broke whilst battoning a large peice of blackthorn.

 

[Canadian Kodiak]

Definition of full tang:

A full tang means that the grip conforms to the shape and follows the outline of the tang, which is a solid piece of metal (typically steel). It is a single piece of metal from tip to base but the hilt is usually encased. Scales (flat pieces of handle material, like stag, wood, or synthetics) may be affixed to the tang with rivets or pins. Alternately, the tang may be wrapped with braided cord or paracord. Injection-molded rubber (Kraton) or plastic (Zytel) are other grip options. A full tang generally implies a tough and durable sword or knife hilt, provided the steel has been properly heat treated and is not too hard (the harder it is, the more brittle it is). This method of production means that the sword or knife is stronger as it is a solid construction rather than a blade fixed to a base which can come off through wear or contact.

The F1 is in fact a full tang. Visibility of the tang between the scales or handle has absolutely nothing to do with whether its full or stick. Perhaps thats a definition that differs between the UK and North America. The cheapy Mora knife that Mors likes to use is a stick tang, also known as a rat tail tang.

Full tang for me all the time, every time. Should the handle of a stick tang knife break or splinter its practically useless. A full tang could still be used easily.

 

[Shinken]

For a stick tang to be well made it should have a low hardness in the tang, preferably spring temper. In that state it will be amlost impossible to break.

A full tang where the metal is expossed all around. That kind of tang is very rarely spring temper because if it where it would increase the likely hood of gaps in the scales.

So i could bend the above stick tang in my vice, where the full tang would snap.

Now in use i have no vice for bending so i would be happy to use either, i may seem to have a bias towards a stick tang but my main knife i use at mo is full tang.

It is just in a theoretical debate i think stick tang's are better (the difference however is minimal as nong as they are both sharp at one end)

Here is my user that i use daily at work

 

[John Fenna]

Definition of full tang:

A full tang means that the grip conforms to the shape and follows the outline of the tang, which is a solid piece of metal (typically steel). It is a single piece of metal from tip to base but the hilt is usually encased. Scales (flat pieces of handle material, like stag, wood, or synthetics) may be affixed to the tang with rivets or pins. Alternately, the tang may be wrapped with braided cord or paracord. Injection-molded rubber (Kraton) or plastic (Zytel) are other grip options. A full tang generally implies a tough and durable sword or knife hilt, provided the steel has been properly heat treated and is not too hard (the harder it is, the more brittle it is). This method of production means that the sword or knife is stronger as it is a solid construction rather than a blade fixed to a base which can come off through wear or contact.

The F1 is in fact a full tang. Visibility of the tang between the scales or handle has absolutely nothing to do with whether its full or stick. Perhaps thats a definition that differs between the UK and North America. The cheapy Mora knife that Mors likes to use is a stick tang, also known as a rat tail tang.

Full tang for me all the time, every time. Should the handle of a stick tang knife break or splinter its practically useless. A full tang could still be used easily.

I was working from the descriptions in "Knives - an illustrated encyclopedia of knives for fighting, hunting and survival" by Pat Farey ...which contains one of my photos (no credit though!)

 

[Toddy]

Swords often do not have 'full' tangs. Indeed it could be argued that fulltang swords haven't been made since the bronze age when the leaf sword, with the blade, tang and pommel cast in one, was the height of the arms race.

Toddy

 

[Shinken]

Swords often do not have 'full' tangs. Indeed it could be argued that fulltang swords haven't been made since the bronze age when the leaf sword, with the blade, tang and pommel cast in one, was the height of the arms race

Would they then wrap the handle in something soft? that send lots of shock through the arm if not?

I would imagine casting would be a way to knock them out fast, rather than a way to make a superior tool

 

[Shinken]

hmmm i wonder if the phrase "knock them out" came from the process of casting in moulds?

 

[Toddy]

Usually they seem to have added fancy scales. I must admit I had wondered about that shudder up the sword arm....I'm told that fighting styles evolved, with the next major step the Roman Gladius, a short, stabbing sword. I don't know if their cavalry used a scimitar like one though ? Most cavalry swords seem to have swept blades....did the Samurai ride ? Their swords have that long light curved length too ?

Not something I've got much knowledge about tbh, I just mind standing in the armoury store in the basement of the Kelvingrove Museum years ago seeing literally thousands of swords in huge great sliding storage racks and listening in on the discussion on tangs, casting techniques and technical advances in the materials and construction components, and the subsequent changes in fighting styles and battle orders. Fascinating really

cheers,
Toddy

 

[demographic]

For the stuff most of us have knives for I can't honestly see the how it makes a crap of difference if the knife has a stick tank or full tang, pick one and use it.

 

[Graham_S]

The longer cavalry sword used by the Romans was the Spatha, as far as I can see it was the same construction as the gladius, and both would typically be a cross between rat tail and enclosed full tang.
I have seen swords that had no tang at all, in fact the blade was riveted to the hilt with no tang at all.

 

[British Red]

Usually they seem to have added fancy scales. I must admit I had wondered about that shudder up the sword arm....I'm told that fighting styles evolved, with the next major step the Roman Gladius, a short, stabbing sword. I don't know if their cavalry used a scimitar like one though ? Most cavalry swords seem to have swept blades....did the Samurai ride ? Their swords have that long light curved length too ?

Oh yes the Samurai rode.....

The Gladius was more a function of the Roman infantry fighting techniques than an evolution of fabrication....it was unsuited to individual open combat, but suited perfectly to organised and disciplined shield wall fighting they perfected. Without an organised army with standardised equipment and maneuvers it didn't work well. Longswords used by many other nations had far better "reach". But the length needed for reach was impossible to utilise effectively in a tight shield formation. Indeed some references discuss Saxons using a long Seax in the shield wall rather than a "proper" sword - a thrusting rather than slashing weapon.

Its the old "form follows function" logic. A thrusting weapon (think Spanish rapier) tends to be straight. A slashing weapon (sabre) works better thith a curve as this gives a small point of initial contact allowing the force to cut on a small area initially with greater pressure (same force, smaller unit area).

[/arms geek]

 

[Toddy]

BR you'd have loved the armoury
Ask Robby about us losing him in it. Finally found him standing in classic Highlander pose with an enormous claymore and the biggest damn grin in Christendom on his face

I take what you mean about the shield wall and such like. The schiltroms, that took on the knights charge at Bannockburn and held, were tight packed, close drilled, men carrying pole arms. Some of the ones we used in the reconstruction film were over 4metres long. Once off their horses, the knights armour hindered them and they were hauled down and slaughtered. Considered infra dig, their king complained to the pope.
The classic highlander weaponry was three part. The claymore was bad enough, but the targe in the other hand (think larger version of the buckler) was used to bat the opponents sword out of line and then the dirk held underneath came into play too. Brutally effective in close combat; however, I am minded of the adage,
"He who lives by the sword gets shot by he who doesn't."
Constant innovation and development doesn't mean the weapons of the past can't still be effective, just not all the time.

cheers,
M