Stick tangs and Full tangs. Advantages and Disadvantages

789987

Settler
Aug 8, 2010
554
0
here
I was younger and slimmer then!
Photos taken at the time - during the set up not the ab down onto the ski slopes from the fiacel (sp)
snacksizeab.jpg

scans of prints - before digital was invented!
Youth of today:rolleyes:
Wont give a fellow credit for telling the truth - even if the fellow never tells lies!
Not a cliff - just a very steep neve slope (steeper than it looks)
It came after a day experimenting with various anchors such as ice bollards - I could have claimed to have abbed off nowt but water!

i humbly beg your pardon for questioning your word - i assure you it was intended in a light hearted fashion and it was not my intention to cause offence.
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,312
3,092
67
Pembrokeshire
No worries mate - it is kinda hard to rate as true...I normally eat the sweeties before I get to the mountain these days!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,312
3,092
67
Pembrokeshire
Now - back to the knives
I like concealed tangs and that is what I usually turn out.
However, rather than drilled handles I tend to use an adapted Henry rebated method.
This is 2 slabs of wood, one rebated to take the tang, which are thewn glued together with Epoxy.
If the tang has a very narrow shaping I will forge it into an eye and Pin or rvet through the eye. Some hidden tang knives come with drilled tangs for pinning.
This avoids others experiencing blade separation if the glue fails a la JD ....
 

Graham_S

Squirrely!
Feb 27, 2005
4,041
66
51
Saudi Arabia
Whenever I see this (old) debate come up, I look at the historical record.
Billhooks, Lekkus, Swords, Khukris.
All stick tang, all heavy duty chopping tools.
I don't think there is any doubt that a stick tang can be suitably strong.
 

JonathanD

Ophiological Genius
Sep 3, 2004
12,815
1,511
Stourton,UK
Stick tangs are great and there is nowt wrong with them for knives, swords etc. Full tangs are too. The minor disadvantages anyone finds in either design are so minor as to not really make much difference, if any, to the performance in their given roles.
 

sapper1

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 3, 2008
2,572
1
swansea
I was younger and slimmer then!
Photos taken at the time - during the set up not the ab down onto the ski slopes from the fiacel (sp)
snacksizeab.jpg

scans of prints - before digital was invented!
Youth of today:rolleyes:
Wont give a fellow credit for telling the truth - even if the fellow never tells lies!
Not a cliff - just a very steep neve slope (steeper than it looks)
It came after a day experimenting with various anchors such as ice bollards - I could have claimed to have abbed off nowt but water!

Sorry John,I don't believe you abseiled using the snack size bar as an anchor.

Knowing you as I do I reckon you were climbing up to it.The determined look on your face shows this to be more likely.:rolleyes:
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,312
3,092
67
Pembrokeshire
Sorry John,I don't believe you abseiled using the snack size bar as an anchor.

Knowing you as I do I reckon you were climbing up to it.The determined look on your face shows this to be more likely.:rolleyes:

That look is of terror being masked by a doubly frozen smile for the camera - and gritted teeth in the effort of keeping my botty from sqeeking!
 

sapper1

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 3, 2008
2,572
1
swansea
Just had a thought.
When I was a kid they were called marathon,looking at you in the picture that picture was taken a while ago.I'm afraid to think how old I feel right now.

Back on topic.

I have always used a full tang and never a stick tang.I have never had a problem with them.
Recently I purchased my first stick tang and have had no problem with it.I honestly can't see any real difference between the two in use.
 

Everything Mac

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 30, 2009
3,131
96
37
Scotland
Are there any famous knives from history which always used a full tang construction?

I ask because I can't think of any.

Billhooks, nessmuks, bowies, swords...all traditionally stick tangs no??

Andy
 

Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
45
Britannia!
http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalBushcraft#p/u/6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.
 

Xunil

Settler
Jan 21, 2006
671
3
56
North East UK
www.bladesmith.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalBushcraft#p/u/6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.

Interesting that the commentary suggests steering clear of the model itself when an individual example of it failed.

That's a bit 'Don't buy a Ford because mine broke down' for my liking.

Also interesting that it broke under 'a bit of light batoning' which could introduce all kinds of variables.

An interesting article on batoning and how it can easily introduce failure in any knife, depending on how it is done, can be found here: www.barkriverknives.com/docs/batoning.pdf

I am not suggesting the reviewer has over egged the pudding, but unlike most I actually own a Helle Kvernstein, among many other Helle knives, and mine has done an awful lot of work without incident. But then, as all the world knows by now, I don't baton.

Ever.

I have in the past, just to learn good technique, but unless I am caught without the means to efficiently and safely process wood I see no reason to belabour the task by using a knife.

I am not trying to defend Helle knives or be an apologist for them although I admit to being a huge fan of their products, but I do want to take an unbiased view of why and how the knife might have failed and, quite simply, it could very easily have failed due to crappy batoning technique.

I know everyone is going to take the "no, no, no; it can't be that because the NaturalBushcraft folks know their oats" stance but in this instance (as in most breakages) we either have a simple materials failure (which is no reason to write off the model I might add) or we have an introduced failure.

I would recommend that anyone even remotely interested in knives and their use should read that Bark River PDF document - it basically gives clear details on how to break a knife (including some you would assume were tantamount to indestructable - like the Cold Steel Master Hunter and the Bark Rive Rogue) by using sloppy batoning technique which is just one reason why I never baton and why in all my years I have never taught the technique.

Assuming you do read it, go back and look at the YouTube video again. You can also Google for a ton of broken knife pictures in relation to batoning.

Re-examine your conclusions as required.

Hidden tang for me (still) :)
 
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Everything Mac

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 30, 2009
3,131
96
37
Scotland
http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalBushcraft#p/u/6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.

"A bit of light batoning"

ie it broke when I as bashing the cr*p out of it.

I'm sorry but when did the knife become a splitting wedge? I've never been a fan of the idea. I have done it to great success with some pine bought in b&q. But I'd never do it out in the bush, what is the point? It comes back to the age old right tool for the job.

If you insist on batoning then do it with wood which is a suitable size and has straight grain - if you really must to make kindling etc. But at the end of the day the knife is and has always been a cutting/slicing tool. why not cut up a good few sets of feather sticks. - job done.


I'd be fairly willing to bet that knife would not have broken had it been used as it was supposed to be.:eek: shock horror.

rant off.

Andy
 
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Samon

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 24, 2011
3,970
45
Britannia!
the guy does bash the blades pretty hard tbh..

I think the handle might have been a loose fit and the tang broke because of inproper shock dispersing when being batoned, but we can't be to sure without the actual video of him f'ing it up.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,894
2,145
Mercia
A good knidfe works. I have three favourite knives - my (Shinken made) puukko, the Stuart Mitchell PFK and my (JoJo made) Nessmuk.

One of each type of tang...all are capable of seriously hard work.

The Puukko is my "on smallholding" carry knife. I have levered open packing cases with it and even planed a stuck barn door. I have hammered forged nails in with the (brass) butt, processed game, sliced free a jammed 8 foot flail cutter....all manner of horrors. It just keeps asking for more. I couldn't break that knife with a club hammer (and yes, I have hit it with one). I f a knife fails, its due to poor heat treatment, materials or design. The tang, if executed by a proper craftsman, will be adequate for the job - hidded, stick, mortice, full, skeleton etc.

Red
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
What BR said :D :approve:

I do batton, frequently, it's an excellent method of making not just kindling, but of making splits for carving, and the like.

I like a knife that I can butt end thump too.....great for cracking nuts and not sending the meat flying, or seperating fibres from chaff.

I'm very fond of one of the Helle knives, the little Polar; I have never had the slightest concern about the tang despite a lot of use in some very (wet, muddy, icy, everything from oak to ivy) unfavourable conditions.

cheers,
Toddy
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,166
159
W. Yorkshire
Mate i am liking this thread, some sense at last
Didn't we have this conversation last year? :D

Ive actually started making stick tangs now aswell as full tangs. I don't find them more difficult to make either. As long as you pay close attention to the fit of the bolster the rest is nice and straight forward :).

In use I don't mind either as long as the blade shape/ thickness is suitable for the job. The extra weight of a full tang doesn't bother me as all the weight sits in the hand anyway.

As I said last year regarding handle faliures. A full tang is more likely to pop it's scales than a stick tang is to break its handle. But the full tang can still be used as a knife if the scales break or pop off, whereas a stick tang faliure is likely to render the knife unusable for anything other than the lightest tasks :)
 

Xunil

Settler
Jan 21, 2006
671
3
56
North East UK
www.bladesmith.co.uk
ery fond of one of the Helle knives, the little Polar; I have never had the slightest concern about the tang despite a lot of use in some very (wet, muddy, icy, everything from oak to ivy) unfavourable conditions.

cheers,
Toddy

I have a Helle Polar too (currently on loan to another BCUK member) and I love it to bits. I'm a big bloke but I could easily use it as my main or only working knife.

That said, the laminated blade lends it a level of toughness impossible to equal with a single steel blade...
 

sapper1

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 3, 2008
2,572
1
swansea
I've just bought the Helle kvernstien and had no problems,It's my first stick tang so time will tell.There doesn't seem to be much difference in use so far.
 

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