Stick tangs and Full tangs. Advantages and Disadvantages

[Canadian Kodiak]

Oops. I was mistaken in my earlier post. As it turns out, not all F1 knives are full tang. My apologies. The F1 Micarta is a full tang, in that the tang has no decrease in size from the end of the blade to the back of the handle. The original F1 Pilot Survival knife does have a decrease in size compared to the height of the blade...it, by definition, is not a full tang and is in fact only a broad tang as was stated earlier.

Either way, I still stand by my choice of full tang over stick tang...although, I do own at least 2 stick tang knives. Both are Moras, but I consider them to be more toys than tools. Ironically, in Mors' book even he recommends a full-tang knife despite the fact that he uses a Mora which has a hidden/stick tang. His definition of a full-tang is any tang that extends all the way through the handle. I would tend to disagree with him on this....

I also wanted to say thanks for whomever posted that pdf article on batoning. Thats an interesting read and a good lesson on how to not break your knife. Thanks for the education

 

[Samon]

Why would you say a Mora knife is more a toy than a tool, Canadian Kodiak?

 

[sapper1]

The mora is far from a toy,it's possibly the most popular knife used for bushcraft.Then again when ever I buy ANY new kit for shrafting I generally describe it as a new toy.

 

[John Fenna]

A tang that extends the full length of the handle can be described as full length ...but full tang? - not in my opinion.
Moras are far from toys damn fine tools IMHO!
I just read the PDF on batoning...stick tangs are better for poor technique! WOW!
Good news for the masses as I see a lot of poor technique

 

[santaman2000]

Are there any famous knives from history which always used a full tang construction?

I ask because I can't think of any.

Billhooks, nessmuks, bowies, swords...all traditionally stick tangs no??

Andy

Yes there have been. The machete; probably the single most prolific knife made. Also many Bowies are full tang though they're probably about 50/50.

 

[British Red]

BR you'd have loved the armoury
Ask Robby about us losing him in it. Finally found him standing in classic Highlander pose with an enormous claymore and the biggest damn grin in Christendom on his face

I take what you mean about the shield wall and such like. The schiltroms, that took on the knights charge at Bannockburn and held, were tight packed, close drilled, men carrying pole arms. Some of the ones we used in the reconstruction film were over 4metres long. Once off their horses, the knights armour hindered them and they were hauled down and slaughtered. Considered infra dig, their king complained to the pope.
The classic highlander weaponry was three part. The claymore was bad enough, but the targe in the other hand (think larger version of the buckler) was used to bat the opponents sword out of line and then the dirk held underneath came into play too. Brutally effective in close combat; however, I am minded of the adage,
"He who lives by the sword gets shot by he who doesn't."
Constant innovation and development doesn't mean the weapons of the past can't still be effective, just not all the time.

cheers,
M

Broadly similar to Agincourt from the sound of it. The archers often brought the horses down (into the thick mud) and finished off with a blade very similar to the dirk. Pole arms vs cavalry was always a test of nerve - on both sides.

Armouries are my downfall - I've spent a whole day in all of the "Royal Armouries". I love when kind people let me try historic weapons. I own a few but the day when a guy on the next point saw me staring at his (original) Baker rifle and Brown Bess and said "want a go?" will live long in my memory - he quite enjoyed my Lee Enfield - but I definitely felt more privileged

Red

 

[santaman2000]

...I'm sorry but when did the knife become a splitting wedge? I've never been a fan of the idea...I'd never do it out in the bush, what is the point? It comes back to the age old right tool for the job...at the end of the day the knife is and has always been a cutting/slicing tool. why not cut up a good few sets of feather sticks. - job done...rant off.Andy

+1. Not only the fact that knives are for cutting and slicing rather than chopping and splitting; but really if a piece of wood it small enaough to be split by batonning, then why would I need to make it smaller? Fuzz sticks can be whittled with a pocketknife.

 

[santaman2000]

I've owned and used both types and the only problems I've had were usually due to poor quality, cheap or shoddy workmanship (occassional stupidity on my part) Either design will work well if used properly and even with a bit of abuse. As I said, I don't baton; I just don't see the point. I do use my knives as prybars occasionally (opening paint cans, supply crates, etc.) I just don't think them as full fledged crowbars to tear apart building framing. I've never had a tang break (of either type); occasionally a blade tip break from prying to close to the tip (the aforementioned stupidity on my part) but never a major blade or tang failure. I also use the buttcap as a hammer for light tasks as Toddy mentioned but have never had any failures from this although I suspect the extra weight in a full tang will simply make it more effective for the weight's sake alone (that or a metal pommeled rat tail) I've also rarely had scales/slabs work loose on my full tangs; only on cheaply made ones that were pinned rather than properly riveted or bolted. I have had the handles work loose on a rat tail (easily corrected corrected by tightening the screw at the pommel if you have the right slotted scewdriver for that type of attachment. For rat tails with other types of attachment (peening, etc.) I've never had any problem. YET!

Get a well made knife from a manufacturer or custom knifesmith with a solid reputation and you should have no problems. At least not if you don't deliberately test to failue; after all anything can be made to break if you really want to.

 

[Xunil]

Don't know how swords got dragged into this, but since they did, all from my own fair (?!?!?!) hand...

A Greek Hoplite sword hilt that I forged (along with a matching spear) for a museum in America some years ago:

The hilt is iron over bronze over the tang.

One of my Katana blades, and a matching pair of rapier blades (tips then tangs):

I cheated outrageously by running the fuller on the Katana right along the length of the tang - at well over 2,000 layers and all forged with hand held hammers I was knackered enough to justify that decision...

It also changed the balance slightly and I am happy to report that I like it that way

The rapiers are going to be a matched pair (one day) and are forged 5160 with forged in fullers. The hidden tangs are also forged down with the ends reduced and annealed, then threaded. Furniture will be Sterling silver, and I made three matched blades in anticipation of balls-ing one up royally which, so far, I have managed to avoid (famous last words)

And, back to knives, a prototype hidden tang:

Notice how far back the pin is - I usually make my hidden tang knives with the tang between 2/3 to 3/4 the length of the handle material which, I guess, goes a long way to explaining my confidence in my hidden tang knives

A decorative (?!?!?!) dagger that I made in a moment of insanity, hidden tang, with a flared 'pommel' of fileworked steel hanging out the tail end:

Geoff Hague called me a nasty name when he inspected it years ago at the Midland Game Fair, where we were both exhibiting

As I recall it went something along the lines of illegitimate smarty bottom

Two hidden tang swords and one hidden tang fighting knife (apologies for some of the images - they are scans of prints that pre-date digital):

Large hidden tang Damascus Bowie with Sterling Silver guard and Desert Ironwood grip (again, note how far back the retaining pin is in the handle - the tang goes at least another inch or so past the pin making it almost full length):

A matched pair of hidden tang working knives in convex ground A2 (the handle choice was the client's - I want that established here and now )

An unusual hidden tang Damascus knife with two 6mm mosaic pins securing the tang, for no good reason other than the client (me) requested them. I listened to my own request carefully and made what I asked for to avoid customer complaints

Low layer count Damascus hidden tang clip point hunter (like folks used to use before outdoors knives were 'reinvented'):

Hidden tang Damascus (blade and guard) with Bird's Eye Maple handle:

You get the idea by now - in case anyone was left in any doubt, I remain partial to hidden tangs but, at a push, a full tang is acceptable, if hidden is not an option

I'll get my coat...

 

[British Red]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

 

[santaman2000]

Xunil you do beautiful work. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Toddy]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

Have a word with Russ or Graham, their's are beautiful. Stuart Mitchell iirc.
M

 

[Xunil]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

There's just no pleasing some people

 

[Canadian Kodiak]

Why would you say a Mora knife is more a toy than a tool, Canadian Kodiak?

No offense to anyone meant. But here's my reasoning. First off, I really don't like the hidden rat tail tang. I think its weak and for a survival knife I would definitely choose a full tang, or at least a full length, broad tang over a stick or rat tail tang. I also don't like the general construction of the handle. At the front of the handle is a small, oval cover or ferrule thats made from cheap, thin sheet metal. That accounts to poor construction in my mind. The handles are basic, at best. Mostly just rounded wood or very light-weight, cheap plastic. In addition, their sheathes are practically garbage. Again, just a cheap piece of plastic.

I know lots of guys use these knives. Mors uses them, Cody Lundin uses them...heck, I own at least 2 Mora knives. But I don't use them for any serious bushcraft, survival or camping situations. The Mora knives that I own are the ones I bash against rocks to see if I get sparks...essentially I abuse them because of their poor quality and low cost they can be easily replaced. If I broke my F1 or my A1 or my BG Bushcrafter I would cry, if I broke my Mora I would just spend 15 bucks and get another one. They are, in my opinion, disposable.

This'll probably **** a few people off...especially the fans of the Mora. But remember, its just my opinion.

 

[Runestone]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

I have this one at the top for when Im in the kilt...

http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/acatalog/Scottish_Knives.html

Granted its not bog oak but the antler is still plain and not the tat you usually see. Only complaiont with it is the sheath as it seems a bit flimsy.

Chris

 

[demographic]

I have this one at the top for when Im in the kilt...

Honest question but, Why?

 

[Runestone]

good question and if Im truly honest its simply because I can

When in highland dress Im either at a wedding or a celidh and I have my Sgian Dubh and my dirk. Celidhs up my way are an informal "tak yer ain food and booze" kind of affair. The Sgian Dubh comes in handy from a general knifey point of view (normally slicing limes for Gin and Tonics, cutting cheese etc. at celidhs).
When at a wedding I dont need either really but I still have them as you wouldn't be properly dressed without them

The dirk really is just decorative but I wouldn't be seen dead with a crap steel, fake jewelled, touristy piece.

 

[mrcharly]

No offense to anyone meant. But here's my reasoning. First off, I really don't like the hidden rat tail tang. I think its weak and for a survival knife I would definitely choose a full tang, or at least a full length, broad tang over a stick or rat tail tang. I also don't like the general construction of the handle. At the front of the handle is a small, oval cover or ferrule thats made from cheap, thin sheet metal. That accounts to poor construction in my mind. The handles are basic, at best. Mostly just rounded wood or very light-weight, cheap plastic. In addition, their sheathes are practically garbage. Again, just a cheap piece of plastic.

You say "cheap" "rounded wood", but have you ever broken one?

I've had a couple of the mora carving knives for years, used them as utility knives around the boats. They've been abused (whittling mild steel wasn't in the design spec) abused and neglected. One knife had the plastic handle (which never fitted my hand well), the other is the wooden one.

I've not broken one yet. Managed to bend the blade battoning when it hit a knot. My ex-wife ruined the edge on one when she left it in the bottom of a dinghy sloshing in salt water.

The sheaf isn't secure. It's ugly. It's very ugly. It is brilliantly quick for putting a knife away and getting it out. Doesn't matter if it gets wet or dirty - give it a rinse and carry on.

I'm not a gentle guy with tools. Drove my dad mad with the number of axe handles I bust. Lost count of the pairs of pliers and cutters I've broken by squeezing too hard.

I've not yet broken a mora knife. Have you?

 

[petrochemicals]

Ressurected this thread as I was wondering how people feel the vibrations and feel of the knives are in stick tangs full tangs, half tangs. It seemed to diverge into how crap some knives are in one opinion and how that is wrong to think that, half way through in classic derailment.

Do stick tangs have worse vibrations than full (or wide) tangs, when hacking at things do full tangs and there weighting give a better feel? Or is that simply down to having a piece of metal the length of the handle, or is even a good stiff half tang just as good?

 

[Samon]

What happened to xunil..?