Self defense, ASP & law??

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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
1,947
Mercia
Mace spray will get you locked up just for owning it, even if you don't carry it. You need a licence for it - its a projectile weapon.
 

jimford

Settler
Mar 19, 2009
548
0
84
Hertfordshire
imo the only way to protect yourself from getting stabbed or mugged is to take up jujitsu or a similar martial art

Before my daughter started a family, she was a 4th dan Aikido black belt in the women's national squad. She used to try pressure points on me and say "Can you feel that, Dad?" I used to tough it out and reply "No, have you started then?". I never let on, and several times had painful arms for days!

Jim
 

taws6

Nomad
Jul 27, 2007
293
2
Anglia
Thanks for you views everyone.

Just to clarify, with referance to chains, bats etc, I ment more as random stuff you may have in the car, NOT as stuff for the Friday night walk home!!

And you're right, whole other issue if you use it in self defence and THEN have to justify carrying it with you.

I've had pens confiscated by bouncers before now

I guess I'll find a different sorce of legal info to get a definate answer on some of the points made.

Claycomb, please feel free to shut down this thread if it is on doggy ground, I certainly don't want BCUK to come into any sort of problems. And thanks for your input and understanding.
 

Adrian

Forager
Aug 5, 2005
138
3
70
South East London
Mace sprays, Cs gas sprays, electric stun guns, tasers are (last time I looked) classified as Section 5 - that is section 5 of the Firearms Act. As such - illegal to own without a specific (and hard to obtain) licence from the Home Secretary. This is the same section governing fully automatic weapons (machine and sub-machine guns, automatic rifles etc)

It is irrelevant to point out that these items can be legally purchased on the Continent (without a licence) for self-protection.

The law also provides that if you carry anything intended, adapted or used as an offensive weapon then you are committing an offence under The Offensive Weapons Acts (as amended by the various Criminal Justice etc Acts over the years). There is no such thing as a "defensive weapon". For instance a roll of coins in your fist - offensive weapon; pick up and put a stone in your handkerchief / bandana to use as an impromptu "cosh" - offensive. You get the idea. I always carry a magazine personally - something with a good cover and spine - Men's Health fits the bill, and often has good stuff in it to read.

Quite apart therefore from items SPECIFICALLY prohibited (extending batons etc) if you are walking around carrying a 6-cell maglite you had better have a GOOD reason for having it on you. A mini mag or similar is fine (get some training in using it as a yawara/kubotan).I always have one on me or in my briefcase. I have seen some mini lights (Surefire for instance) with irregular-shaped front bezels to aid in defense - NO - shows intent to use it as a weapon.

Remember as well - while talking about kubotans, Tak Kubota designed that as a safer alternative to the steel-barrelled Cross ballpoint pen.
 

smoggy

Forager
Mar 24, 2009
244
0
North East England
I think some people are only reading half of what is being relayed here............or deliberatly misinterperating it.........

If you have reason to carry a torch (walking the dog of an evening in the woods or down narrow roads without footpaths) then should you be attacked, it would be reasonable to utilise the torch as a defensive weapon. Not take a big heavy torch to the offlicence for a packet of fags along well lit streets and if you are attacked stove the offenders head in!

As I posted earlier, having defended yourself, you may well find yourself in court justifying the actions you took.

Chris is perfectly correct in his warnings and there is no such thing as a defensive weapon as far a carrying something in case...........only something used defensively if you happen to legitimately have it with you as would be the case of a walking stick user for instance.........the only exception I can think of is a personal alarm, which cannot cause harm.

It is under the pretext of "defence" that kids are carrying knifes and ultimately using them on the streets today.

Smoggy.
 

korvin karbon

Native
Jul 12, 2008
1,022
0
Fife
i would avoid the martial arts and do a combat system ie Krav maga, Systema or Sambo, all are real world based.
The eastern martial arts are very good in their own enviroment and the systems i mentioned borrow heavily from all of them, but only the bits that are most effective.

Using a weapon will always put you in a dim light of the law and generally you attract trouble and to a certain degree gives you a self confidence that is false ie having maglite means SFA when you have a couple of boozed up rugby players.

One thing i will advise on is this "learn to sprawl" ending up on the deck grappling is the last thing you ever want to do.
 

Black Sheep

Native
Jun 28, 2007
1,539
0
North Yorkshire
photobucket.com
i would avoid the martial arts and do a combat system ie Krav maga, Systema or Sambo, all are real world based.
The eastern martial arts are very good in their own enviroment and the systems i mentioned borrow heavily from all of them, but only the bits that are most effective.

The only word of warning i would say about martial arts is "resaonable force" if you use your training what ever it may be beyond that you run the risk of ending up in even more bother:(

I have been warned of this by two instructors in two different disciplines.

Richard
 

C_Claycomb

Moderator staff
Mod
Oct 6, 2003
7,355
2,366
Bedfordshire
You know, I always find it slightly amusing how many folk who are interested in bushcraft have had some form of martial training. From the large number of serving, and ex-service military, through to a whole lot who have trained or taught some form of fighting art. Guess it it allied to the desire to be capable and self reliant, which isn't so far from what brings a lot of folk to bush skills :cool:

I tend to agree with korvin karbon about choosing a system to study. Martial arts are not the same as self defence and it seems that it's a rare teacher who is willing to admit this. The conglomerate combat systems seem a better place to look than the Eastern Arts. If you are really lucky you might find someone who can teach verbal judo, body language and "interview" skills too.

My personal favourite self defence technique is packing a throw away wallet :D Its all but worn out, is loaded with £15, old reciepts and some old, out of date and defaced store cards. ;) If anyone wants my wallet badly enough, they are welcome to it!
 

korvin karbon

Native
Jul 12, 2008
1,022
0
Fife
The only word of warning i would say about martial arts is "resaonable force" if you use your training what ever it may be beyond that you run the risk of ending up in even more bother:(

I have been warned of this by two instructors in two different disciplines.

Richard


DOH, thank you for pointing out the VERY VERY FIRST thing, getting socked in the nose does not mean an elbow, hammer fist followed up by a hook and then mule kick to the knee and finally a knee to the face. This was combo i was dry sparring with, my partner put on the safety gear and i floored him with the first strike.

Retaliate do not annihilate
 

taws6

Nomad
Jul 27, 2007
293
2
Anglia
I love the throw away wallet idea Claycomb, very nice lol

Unfortunately, some of the thugs around here are only after a bit of blood sport, the happy slappin type.....

I'm sure there would be little reason to need to justify why you were carrying mini mag / unbrella in the UK
 

Wallenstein

Settler
Feb 14, 2008
753
1
46
Warwickshire, UK
When we went trekking in Africa and South America we took a load of old Italian lira notes... worth less than £5 but the denominations are so huge that you can hand over a couple of thousand to any would-be mugger and they'll go away happy.
 

helixpteron

Native
Mar 16, 2008
1,469
0
UK
I can honestly say that the UK laws pertaining to the use of lawful self defense, and the lawful defense of others, is something which I have found to be well drafted, easily understood and fully respected by Police Officers.

Having disarmed, restrained and detained knife attackers and other assailants, I have had the opportunity to have my understanding of these laws scrutinized, and my personal conduct fully investigated and found to have been wholly lawful.

Without exception!

Developing what is sometimes referred to as situational awareness, understanding force dynamics and learning whichever techniques induce a feeling of 'not being afraid' may be far more rewarding than the carrying of a six cell MagLite!

Other than for light output, the 'AAA' MagLite is far more capable, as is a stainless steel Parker Jotter pen, however, no device can ever substitute for an assured, confident nature, and a prepared mindset.

I have never used any device to enable or assist defense, even when the knife attacker drew a second weapon after I'd disarmed him of his primary weapon. In truth, he became far more dangerous after I took his second weapon, hence the use of lawful force!

No weapon will protect you if you have no experience in the handling and tactics of those types which you, and your assailant may use!

I would suggest that self sufficiency includes learning about oneself and addressing any fears which exist, by technique and training, rather than by the carrying of weaponry. I agree with what korvin karbon said about the three systems he mentioned.
 

Hangman

Tenderfoot
I spend a lot of time doing safety surveys and pre demolition surveys on derelcit buildings - often a haven for drug addicts.

I've been attacked a few times and I am glad that I carry a maglilte, however, I can't agree with the comment:

"I can honestly say that the UK laws pertaining to the use of lawful self defense, and the lawful defense of others, is something which I have found to be well drafted, easily understood and fully respected by Police Officers."

I've yet to get a coherent definition of 'Reasonable Force' either from the police or the courts - In one instance the judge felt that an injury would need to be sustained for reasonable force to come into play.

I'm ex RAF, and part of my aircrew training was taught unarmed combat and knife fighting - given that in case of bailing out the only weapon we were likely to have would be our aircrew survival knives - the ones where the sheath was sown onto the flight suit.

One piece of advice given by our instructor, was where possible make a noise, throw something at them and run like f*!*k, don't allow yourself to be backed into a corner if yuo can run.


If I may make a suggestion, The Suzy Lamplugh trust do some very good advice about avoiding the need to defend yourself, it may be worth a look.
 

durulz

Need to contact Admin...
Jun 9, 2008
1,755
1
Elsewhere
Crikey.
This thread is like listening to a bunch of school boys in the playground - all trying to big themselves up and say what they'd do and who they can beat up and how they can handle it, how they're the meanest thing on the street (nudge nudge, wink wink, don't mess with me, I'm dead streetwise).
Quite funny.
Keep it up.
 

woof

Full Member
Apr 12, 2008
3,647
5
lincolnshire
Anything that is made, adapted, or intended to cause harm, is an offensive weapon.

Reasonable force, is not what you think it takes to put someone down, but what you can justify in court, in the cold light of day, 6-12 months after the incident.

Be very careful, as has already been stated about what you say, as it is possible friends/family can be interviewed, and statements taken, following incidents, to see if your state of mind set is aggressive,ie had you made the descision to batter an asailant before the incident even took place.

Rob
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,937
4,570
S. Lanarkshire
Ermm, pointed out a truth?

Jim

No, it just started a dissent.

The thread was a request for information.
So far..........we know that carrying something with the intention that it may be used in defence, is illegal.
Carrying an everyday object such as a torch in appropriate circumstances might be acceptable if said object is used after one is attacked. It is illegal to use it as a pre-emptive strike.

Two members who both have a lot of experience working with the public, and that's generally rowdy and frequently drunken and / or aggressice public, have said that learning how to read a situation is an incredibly valuable knowledge. They have also both agreed that a real life discipline is more use than some of the martial arts ones.

Useful links to sites such as the Suzi Lamplugh Trust too.

cheers,
Toddy
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Mace/pepper spray is a section 5 firearm (weapons that are prohibited unless special permission is granted by the Home Secretary. This section covers automatic weapons, military weapons and modern handguns). Carrying it, or even owning it without a firearms licence has a mandatory custodial sentence of 5 years in prison.

ASP batons are specifically cited as offensive weapons in the banned items list of The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 (clicky).
the weapon sometimes known as a "telescopic truncheon" , being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;

Section 141 of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act (clicky) makes all items on that list...
Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both.
That means you cannot legally sell, hire, offer for sale or hire, lend, give or import an ASP baton.
In addition, as it is specifically cited as an offensive weapon by the above act, then the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 also applies....
Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence.

In this section 'offensive weapon' means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or some other person.
In simple language, as the extendable batton is a banned item, it automatically falls under the description of "article made or adapted for use for causing injury".

You cant buy one legally and if you carry one you are immediately in breach of both the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act.

Can you defend yourself?
Yes of course you can. You are allowed to use whatever reasonable force is necessary to safeguard your person, including the use of ANY WEAPONS you have at your disposal at the material time. If you happen to be standing next to a hammer when attacked, you can legally use it as a weapon to defend yourself.

What you cannot do is carry any items as weapons in anticipation of armed conflict, including stick, torch or whatever.

That's the law.

Personally, I think it should be amended to allow the carriage of self-defence weapons by people who have no criminal convictions. But that's just my opinion and is irrelevant.
 

combatblade1

Need to contact Admin...
Jun 1, 2007
303
0
"I won't have a Spydi"
I quite agree with you mate, back to the original question. Its illegal to own an asp in the uk its illegal to sell a baton in the Uk and its illegal to carry one unless you have special permission from the government eg Police. you always have the right of self defence as long as the force you use is reasonable. The old if they hit you in the face you hit them in the face, is rubbish. You have he right to hit first if you believe you are going to be attacked this is stated in case law. the force you use to deflect an attack/defend yourself will be based on your understanding of the events and YOUR perception of fear and personal injury. Martial arts, fighting systems, combat systems will never replace a prepared and cautious mind, in fact they can cause more problems by giving you confidence in something which is usless. If someone puts a knife to your back and wants your wallet give it to them, a fancy fighting technique will only get you hurt after all the vast majority of criminals nowadays are studying these systems themselves. If it is necessary to fight do so to escape. Carry a weapon for self defence and you may find it turned on you.


Crikey.
This thread is like listening to a bunch of school boys in the playground - all trying to big themselves up and say what they'd do and who they can beat up and how they can handle it, how they're the meanest thing on the street (nudge nudge, wink wink, don't mess with me, I'm dead streetwise).
Quite funny.
Keep it up.
 

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