Self defense, ASP & law??

[Minotaur]

We are not allowed to carry ANYTHING for self defense purposes. As the intention is to use it as a weapon. Therefore illegal. Same laws as knives really.

Bang on!

First off, they are illegal, so no.

Second thing, carrying anything in the UK for self-defense purposes is a crime. You turn the item into an offensive weapon.

when i was in army cadets one of the adult instructors who was a policeman showed us his 'bat belt' which had the usual police stuff including an asp. he let us have a go and trust me these things are lethal. one girl swung it back and nearly conked someone on the head lol.

Unless they have improved them, they are rubbish, and weighted wrong. They bend easily in actual use.

imo the only way to protect yourself from getting stabbed or mugged is to take up jujitsu or a similar martial art, not judo because its next to useless in the real world. at least if someone goes to stab you know how to block the attack, get yourself out of the way and take the weapon away from the attacker.

Never really understood that one. If you go to attack me, and I throw you on concrete, it will be game over. If I do some of the higher level versions of the Judo arsenal, they will be putting you in a bag. The problem Judo has is it teaches you to deal one on one, in the real world these cowards always have friends. I would avoid Ju Jitsu(esp Brazilian), because they like to go to ground, and that can be bad for your health.

Find a Silat, Kali, Escrema, or Krava Maga class, and then give over at least an hour a day, attend three classes a week for at least three years.

The only word of warning i would say about martial arts is "resaonable force" if you use your training what ever it may be beyond that you run the risk of ending up in even more bother

I have been warned of this by two instructors in two different disciplines.

It basically puts you on the same level as if you were armed. That is why boxers have bodyguards. It is not to stop them getting hurt, it is to stop them going to jail.

You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself if attacked.
However you must prove "reasonable force"

Under UK law you are almost guilty until proved innocent. There is no right of defense, it was one of the things Gordon Brown was going to change. I know of a lot of cases of people defending themselves, and their attackers use the same defense, they attacked me. They win more often, because their past record cannot be brought in, and it is your word against theirs.

They punch you, you can punch back
If they kick you, you can kick back.

In a self-defense situation, letting them hit you first, will lose you the fight.

 

[Bushwhacker]

The first rule of self defence is to avoid a situation in the first place.
Number two on my list is to get away from said situation as quickly as possible. Run.

 

[Walks with dogs]

Ooh a thread on my second favourite subject. I'm loathe to confess that prior to spending my computer time here I have spent FAR too much of my life studying / training and endlessly discussing self defense, which really is a much much deeper subject than just "learn Karate".

Awareness and avoidance skills are far far more effective and useful than learning to scrap. As an analogy , I prefer to drive in a fashion that avoids crashes than learn how to survive a crash. Any scrapping skills I may have picked up , I think of as the seatbelt , they just may keep me alive should I screw up enough to get in a crash.

I no longer agree with everything the man says but I read a book "Dead or alive" by Geoff Thompson several years ago. Anyone interested in learning how to prevent themself becoming a victim of violent assault could do far worse.

Carrying any item thinking it can serve you as a weapon is often ill advised. Aside from giving you the false confidence to walk into a situation you might otherwise avoid it then raises all sorts of other questions. Where do you carry it,? Do you actively practise getting to it under stress when someone is trying to hit you? At what point do you begin to go for it? (hours of fun discussing that one) Will that weapon actually STOP an attacker who is high on drink drugs or adrenaline. Bear in mind some people get shot or stabbed and keep coming forward and you may start to wonder if that kubotan is really going to do the job.

Then, assuming your gizmo has done the job, your attacker (assuming there is just one , which is unlikely) is unconscious you now have to worry about the legal implications. Will you stay and render first aid? Will you run and hope noone ever finds out? Will you ring the police? Call an ambulance?

I'm painting a deliberately horrific picture and I make no apology for doing so.

I am not a "badass" by a log , very long margin, but I do have a limited knowledge on this subject- which is just as well cos I am rubbish at carving spoons.

Best advice I can give is, avoid going to stupid places and doing stupid things with stupid people.

In my view discussion of self defence issues is best carried out elsewhere, the internet is chock full of forums to discuss the very issue- trust me I have wasted a lot of time on them.

 

[Minotaur]

Have to agree with Walks With Dogs, think this thread is done.

Any mods about to close it?

 

[Hangman]

Bushwhacker, the best self defence position I was taught was the 'RLF' Run Like F....


"Awareness and avoidance skills are far far more effective and useful than learning to scrap. As an analogy , I prefer to drive in a fashion that avoids crashes than learn how to survive a crash. Any scrapping skills I may have picked up , I think of as the seatbelt , they just may keep me alive should I screw up enough to get in a crash."

Suzy Lamplugh Trust concentrates a lot of avoiding getting into a compromised situation.

 

[Bushwhacker]

Bushwhacker, the best self defence position I was taught was the 'RLF' Run Like F....
QUOTE]

Absolutely, brains over braun any day.

 

[harryhaller]

I have to chime in here as well in agreement - and warn against posts #16 and #32.

The advice from the experts I've heard or read - never tackle someone with a knife - and in general it's better to get out of the situation than get "involved" - which is what Bushwhacker said in #42 and Hangman said in #45 - and said much better than I can.

Both Bruce Lee and Jet Li (the star used to be in the Chinese Kung Fu national team) had wry remarks about the use of the martial arts in real fight situations - and the latter's remarks about the "winning" mentality was that the winner neither ends up in hospital nor in the law courts - he backs off quietly or he legs it as seems appropiate.

He emphasised that if the other's got a knife you don't tackle him. And I believe the police also recommend - and not just in the UK - that you just hand over the wallet.

The use of martial arts can be considered the same as the use of an offensive weapon by a court - this was the case in one country - even though the person was defending himself and the court accepted it. But the person had used it beyond that which was necessary to defend himself.

 

[sapper1]

I agree with Hangman and bushwacker, firstly we all know trouble when we see it,walk the other way.Problem solved.
If you are unable to avoid it or it comes on you by surprise then Run.
I am very big and can look after myself,BUT, in the event I could be proved wrong and leave a wife and 2 kids without a father and husband ,I always make sure I can run ,and very fast too.

 

[helixpteron]

Given that I am disabled, am totally unable to run, have difficulty walking, and was 'boxed in' a space about the size of a large, single car garage, enclosed on three sides, with an utterly terrified person behind me, whilst in front of me was a highly motivated man, armed with a fixed blade knife!

The option of running away, or to a place of safety simply did not exist!

Even if I had been able to run, I would not have, as to do so would have meant abandoning the person whom I was shielding with my body, being behind me was their place of safety!

I did not "tackle" the knife attacker, I defended, and continued to do so until such time that the assailant was disarmed, restrained and detained. I had no option other than to restrain and detain, as the attacker expended all his rage and energies in trying to rearm himself in order to use his weapons against me, the intention of which he kept screaming at me!

In truth, I'm a pacifist whom cares about people, consequently, I try extremely hard to bring about a peaceful conclusion to violent incidents, regretfully, this is not always possible, and in order to protect others and myself from harm, the lawful application of force becomes necessary.

I am affected by having to use force, not only in the legal context of the investigation, the defendant's court proceedings and in supporting the victims, but in how it affects me as a person. And make no mistake, the use of force against another person always causes effects, none of which are mitigated by one's actions being deemed wholly lawful.

Reality is somewhat different than durulz's 'geezer/street thug' viewpoint of such events!

 

[Minotaur]

Both Bruce Lee and Jet Li (the star used to be in the Chinese Kung Fu national team) had wry remarks about the use of the martial arts in real fight situations - and the latter's remarks about the "winning" mentality was that the winner neither ends up in hospital nor in the law courts - he backs off quietly or he legs it as seems appropiate.

Bruce Lee, the street fighter, in a place were the muggers were black belt weapon users, said martial arts did not work in real world situations!


Ok, so he spent his whole life trying to fix the problems(the once fluid man made static) in martial arts for nothing.

 

[Pict]

Personally, I think it should be amended to allow the carriage of self-defence weapons by people who have no criminal convictions. But that's just my opinion and is irrelevant.

Martyn,

Your opinion is entirely valid. That system works very well in a great many places.

From 12 years of living in Brazil I have found situational awareness has kept me out of more street crime than anything else. Weapons and martial arts are for when you mess up at the primary task of paying attention. If you are paying attention it does you no good unless you act immediately and change course when you see someone notice you and begin whatever they have in mind. Most people see trouble coming and keep right on going hoping it's all in their imagination. Don't talk yourself out of your own survival.

One device that is legal to carry anywhere in the world is a powerful 120+ lumen flashlight. A few seconds of that in the dark and they are temporarily blinded, you are not, you can positively ID them, they know it, and no laws have been broken. A powerful light really is a game changer on a dark street.

Mac

 

[HillBill]

Martyn,

Your opinion is entirely valid. That system works very well in a great many places.

From 12 years of living in Brazil I have found situational awareness has kept me out of more street crime than anything else. Weapons and martial arts are for when you mess up at the primary task of paying attention. If you are paying attention it does you no good unless you act immediately and change course when you see someone notice you and begin whatever they have in mind. Most people see trouble coming and keep right on going hoping it's all in their imagination. Don't talk yourself out of your own survival.

One device that is legal to carry anywhere in the world is a powerful 120+ lumen flashlight. A few seconds of that in the dark and they are temporarily blinded, you are not, you can positively ID them, they know it, and no laws have been broken. A powerful light really is a game changer on a dark street.

Mac

Yeah the light itself is your best ally in the night. Stun and run.

 

[harryhaller]

Bruce Lee, the street fighter, in a place were the muggers were black belt weapon users, said martial arts did not work in real world situations!


Ok, so he spent his whole life trying to fix the problems(the once fluid man made static) in martial arts for nothing.

Well that was what Jeet Kune Do was all about.

One of the theories of JKD is that a fighter should do whatever is necessary to defend himself, regardless of where the techniques come from. One of Lee's goals in Jeet Kune Do was to break down what he claimed were limiting factors in traditional martial arts training, and seek a fighting thesis which he believed could only be found within the reality of a fight. Jeet Kune Do is currently seen as the genesis of the modern state of hybrid martial arts.

 

[wanderingblade]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the most obvious devise to carry - the personal attack alarm.

A few hundred decebels of shrill, piercing noise will deter most attackers. It will also not risk landing you in court if used.

Personally, I think it should be amended to allow the carriage of self-defence weapons by people who have no criminal convictions. But that's just my opinion and is irrelevant.

I have to disagree.

How many times do we tell people who carry knives for defence that they are very likely carrying their own murder weapon?

You stand the very real risk of having whatever self defence tool you choose to carry taken from you and used against you - escalating an incident which may have been a few punches to an assult with a weapon.

As has been mentioned, awareness and avoidance are key, second defence is running, final defence could be the attack alarm / making lots of noise.

It is so sad we live in a society that even has to have these discussions.

 

[Pict]

"As has been mentioned, awareness and avoidance are key, second defence is running, final defence could be... making lots of noise."

That's pretty much how it works over here but that attack alarm goes off between five and fifteen times.

My earlier comments were related to the non-permissive environment of Brazil. Here in Pennsylvania a concealed weapons license is considered a right and an enormous number of people avail themselves of it. Of the two places where I spend a great deal of my life hands down Pennsylvania is a far, far less violent place.

The opinion that citizens with no criminal history can be trusted to carry weapons for their own defense is being borne out in most US states. The most dangerous places in the US all ban their citizens from carrying concealed weapons. Our most dangerous city for street crime is Washington DC which has weapons laws almost identical to the UK. Mac

Edited to add - Let me clarify. I'm not saying that they UK would be better served with a liberal handgun policy like found in 48 of our states. What I am saying is that responsible citizens can be trusted and that the government has the ability to identify them. It would be very easy to set up a background check and license system to allow citizens to carry pepper spray or a Taser.

 

[johnnytheboy]

Fined for carrying an ASP or kicked to death on the street corner, Hmmmm

Difficult choice

 

[HillBill]

Fined for carrying an ASP or kicked to death on the street corner, Hmmmm

Difficult choice

Not fined for carrying a mag lite, not kicked to death on street corner. Happy days.

 

[harryhaller]

Pict, don't you think that kids brought up with guns and taught to see them as hunting tools and means of defence, have less of a power fetish with regard to arms?

I do think that the NRA are right when they say that guns don't kill, people do. A violent person is a dangerous person and will use whatever he can get his hands on. And in anycase - having laws against carrying weapons is totally absurd since criminals are rather well known for not respecting the law!

After the Dunblane Massacre the laws on carrying handguns was tightened up twice leaving no known loopholes - yet years later we noticed that gun crime had rocketed with even kids and youths possessing them. So much for legislation.

 

[wanderingblade]

Fined for carrying an ASP or kicked to death on the street corner, Hmmmm

Difficult choice

Run away from a nutjob on a street corner or......

a) ......get severely beaten my a nutjob enraged that you pulled an ASP on him and tried to hit him with it.

b).......be targeted by mates of said nutjob who take it upon themselves to sort you out for beating their mate.

c).......find yourself arrested when you have fractured said nutjobs skull, putting him in hospital.

d)......find yourself in prison having killed said nutjob.

Difficult choice.


Lets be clear - talk of carrying items for self defence is basically vigilantism, and I'm sure thats a path most of us would steer clear from.

 

[Martyn]

Run away from a nutjob on a street corner or......

a) ......get severely beaten my a nutjob enraged that you pulled an ASP on him and tried to hit him with it.

b).......be targeted by mates of said nutjob who take it upon themselves to sort you out for beating their mate.

c).......find yourself arrested when you have fractured said nutjobs skull, putting him in hospital.

d)......find yourself in prison having killed said nutjob.

Difficult choice.


Lets be clear - talk of carrying items for self defence is basically vigilantism, and I'm sure thats a path most of us would steer clear from.

That's the point. Personally, I'd like to be the one to decide for myself which of the above options to choose from, rather than have the options for my personal safety limited by legislation.

If pepper spray and asp batons just increased your chances of being hurt, I doubt that our police would have them issued.

Avoiding trouble or running away is always the best option. Having a baton or a can of pepper spray in your pocket doesnt change that.

But it's academic, the law doesnt allow it, so further discussion on the subject is pretty much pointless.