Self defense, ASP & law??

[taws6]

Hi,

I know this isn't really 'bushcraft', but it is the survival skills section, and I'm sure more people are attacked and killed on our streets, than die of hypothermia in the hills, so....

I wonder if there are any police or anyone on here who knows the laws concerning the ASP? (for those who don't know, it's an extendable baton, like what our police carry for self defence).

Is the ASP legal to carry on your person?.
The streets can get a bit rough at nights, I would of thought this is a fair reason to carry one, is it not?

How about if you had one in your car, would it be considered possesion of a lethal weapon then?? (Concerned obout carjacking too).

What is/would be the penalty if you were found in possesion of an ASP and charged?
I guess if it is illegal, you could get a criminal reccord for having one?
How seriously are they looked upon, would an understanding officer consifcate the item and send you on your way??

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am not condoning the carrying or use of weapons on our streets, but it would be good to know what the laws are concering this matter.
Sorry for asking awarked questions, but I don't want to fall foul of the law.

Thank you for the advise.....

 

[John Fenna]

I think most of the plod would just see it as an offensive weapon and your would not touch the floor until you were in a nice safe cell awaiting the judge - with whom you could argue the case!

Walking sticks are more generally acceptable but in some circs have still been confiscated by those protecting us from the crims.....

 

[He' s left the building]

I'm no legal expert, but from previous conversation with mates who are bobbies:

Is the ASP legal to carry on your person? No, it is an offensive weapon.

The streets can get a bit rough at nights, I would of thought this is a fair reason to carry one, is it not? No, it is an offensive weapon.

How about if you had one in your car, would it be considered possesion of a lethal weapon then? Posession of an offensive weapon. If they could also prove intent then you have a lot of explaining to do.

What is/would be the penalty if you were found in possesion of an ASP and charged?
I guess if it is illegal, you could get a criminal reccord for having one? Possibly, depends on the situation and what the magistrate/judge thought of it!

How seriously are they looked upon, would an understanding officer consifcate the item and send you on your way? Unlikely, see previous response!


*'My friend' recommended that you might like to carry one of those long 3 or 4 cell Maglites in your car and by your bedside, just so you have a reliable torch handy when required (break-downs, powercuts, etc, that sort of thing, you know what I'm saying...)*

 

[QDanT]

http://ad1542.tripod.com/cunningham.pdf :twak:[/url]

 

[jimford]

Walking sticks are more generally acceptable but in some circs have still been confiscated by those protecting us from the crims.....

Many years ago I knew someone that had a nice elegant sharkskin covered walking stick. It was made of solid steel and was very heavy!

For years the constant appeal by the public for more police on the streets has been ignored. Is it because the police now consider the streets to be too dangerous for them to venture out?!

'When I was a boy' (tm), police on the streets were ubiquitous. My parents (my father was in the Met.) used to tell me "!f you want to know the time, ask a policeman". Tell that to a kid nowadays and they'll look at you in disbelief - you don't see police on the street from one week to another. If the lights on my bike weren't working, I didn't dare ride it after dark, because I was sure to be pulled up by a local 'bobby' on a street.

My father used to carry a whistle in the top pocket of his uniform. I understand its use was to summon assistance from another police officer. This meant that there were enough police on the streets that they were often within earshot of each other!

With the many shootings, stabbings and assaults on our streets, I'm coming round to thinking that as the police can't (or won't) protect the public, the public ought to be allowed to protect themselves!

Jim

 

[smoggy]

The batten you describe, or indead any other, has only one purpose as a weapon.......be that defensive in your eyes or not.........in law it is offensive! The same applies to anyother item which serves no other porpose, and in addition, any item for which you have no good reason to be in possession of at the time and location may also be construde as an offencive weapon.........
ergo a crow bar in your hand as you walk to your uncles house after dark may get you locked up, unless you have a reason to be taking it there......and are not acting in a suspicious way!
likewise if you are clearing scrub then a bill hook or machette would be quite acceptable, provided it is carried with a modecum of sense!

If your defence is you are carrying it as a defencesive weapon, then you are carrying a weapon, period......

Now a large heavy metal torch, as favoured by many security staff the word over which is primarily used as a torch is not a weapon unless deliberately used as one, but in the event of being attacked then it is reasonable to use it as a weapon of self defence, provided that one only goes as far as the situation requires. Unfortunately the latter point is a grey area and may take a court case to decide if your actions were self defence or an agressive act!

I know of a young man who was convicted of carrying offensive weapons (hammer, screwdriver, chissel and pliers) his defence was that he was taking them to his fathers to do some work, which his father confirmed and I believe this was in fact the truth, but he had a previous record of carrying.........so don't get a record in the first place, or you're already guilty the next time, even if you are not!

So no it's not a viable option but there are others.

Smoggy.

 

[Wallenstein]

Without getting into the politics of it the ASP is specifically mentioned in law as an offensive weapon.

Amendment of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 19883.—(1) The Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (OVensive Weapons) Order 1988(b),(which specifies oVensive weapons for the purposes of section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act1988), shall be amended by the insertion into paragraph 1 of that Schedule after sub-paragraph(o) the following:

“(p) a stealth knife, that is a knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, madefrom a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detectingmetal and which is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing,preparation or consumption of food or as a toy;

(q) a straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon (sometimes known as a baton).”

It's legal to own one but not to carry it in public (that includes your car, unless it's in a locked box specifically for transport to another location, same as knives etc).

 

[HillBill]

We are not allowed to carry ANYTHING for self defense purposes. As the intention is to use it as a weapon. Therefore illegal. Same laws as knives really.

 

[m.durston]

We are not allowed to carry ANYTHING for self defense purposes. As the intention is to use it as a weapon. Therefore illegal. Same laws as knives really.

sad but true. as quoted above its all about the intention of use.
i now work as a pay n display engineer for NSL but when i first worked for them i was a parking attendant.
my boss is very aware of the fact that some members of the public will lash out so he will back us up fully as long as we defend ourselves using reasonable force.
for example my mate was set upon by two drunks who decided that they would pick on a "traffic warden" who was doing no more than walking along minding his business.
they were spotted on CCTV sprinting towards him and it was them who threw the first punch.
my mate retaliated by clocking one of them round the head with his hand held computer and throwing the other to the floor lol
when the police arrived the drunks were mouthing off that they had been assaulted, but because my mate had used what he had on him it was classed as self defence and they were arrested for assault lol.
like boops mate had suggested one of the coppers had asked why we didnt carry 4 cell maglites for the dark areas cos then you have something to use if your attacked!

 

[ArkAngel]

Hi,

I know this isn't really 'bushcraft', but it is the survival skills section, and I'm sure more people are attacked and killed on our streets, than die of hypothermia in the hills, so....

I wonder if there are any police or anyone on here who knows the laws concerning the ASP? (for those who don't know, it's an extendable baton, like what our police carry for self defence).

Is the ASP legal to carry on your person?.
The streets can get a bit rough at nights, I would of thought this is a fair reason to carry one, is it not?

How about if you had one in your car, would it be considered possesion of a lethal weapon then?? (Concerned obout carjacking too).

What is/would be the penalty if you were found in possesion of an ASP and charged?
I guess if it is illegal, you could get a criminal reccord for having one?
How seriously are they looked upon, would an understanding officer consifcate the item and send you on your way??

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am not condoning the carrying or use of weapons on our streets, but it would be good to know what the laws are concering this matter.
Sorry for asking awarked questions, but I don't want to fall foul of the law.

Thank you for the advise.....

No no no there is no way you can carry something like that.

But a 6 cell maglite..........

 

[jimford]

But a 6 cell maglite..........

And hold it behind the head. That way it's not so easy for it to slide or be pulled out of your hand!

Jim

 

[stretch3144]

Some interesting reading here. Its a shame that we (the general public) have no right to defend ourselves!
Its true what has been said - there is a lack of police on our streets.....except on a Friday or Saturday night down town!!
I live about a mile away from the biggest police station in town, and if/when I need to call them it takes at least ten minutes for someone to turn up!
Last summer, I stopped two blokes in the process of breaking into my next door neighbours' house. It was about 0230 in the morning and I was on my way home after a good night out. Upon seeing them, I made a remark about my neighbour being at work. One guy acknowledged me, and turned and walked away, then his mate charged past me knocking me aside. I only realised they were breaking in when I saw the door ajar!
I gave chase, but after quite a lot of beer and a kebab was in no fit state to pursue them. I did however get a good description of their car, which I passed to the police. Two policemen turned up about ten minutes after I called them.

Getting back to the original post - have you thought about carrying a mini maglight or similar and using it as a Kubotan?
Can't see a copper doing you for carrying a small flashlight. They have to prove your intent to use it as a weapon.

 

[Black Sheep]

I seem to remember a guy in York getting done for carry an ASP and flashing it in a Pub to one of his mates - Charged for carrying an offensive weapon, it was a while ago but I think he got sent down for a couple of months.

Also as m.durston said a Maglite seems to be an reasonable alternative and legal.

I remember hearing something on Radio2 about this last year and the guy giving advice said a lot of people keep such a torch next to their beds for just this reason - Ops I meant if the power went off

Richard

 

[ArkAngel]

Some interesting reading here. Its a shame that we (the general public) have no right to defend ourselves!.

You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself if attacked.

However you must prove "reasonable force"

They punch you, you can punch back

If they kick you, you can kick back.


What you cannot do is stop an unarmed mugger with a baton. Or jump up and down on someones head after you have knocked them to the ground.

 

[jimford]

Some interesting reading here. Its a shame that we (the general public) have no right to defend ourselves!

Yes, because of the ineffectiveness of the police, criminals are by default 'allowed' (in the sense of not being prevented) to arm themselves, but the public not!

Jim

 

[Peter_t]

when i was in army cadets one of the adult instructors who was a policeman showed us his 'bat belt' which had the usual police stuff including an asp. he let us have a go and trust me these things are lethal. one girl swung it back and nearly conked someone on the head lol.

imo the only way to protect yourself from getting stabbed or mugged is to take up jujitsu or a similar martial art, not judo because its next to useless in the real world. at least if someone goes to stab you know how to block the attack, get yourself out of the way and take the weapon away from the attacker.
if you have the knife they will leave you alone

just because you carry an asp doesn’t mean you know how to use it. also you could hit a hardened criminal a dozen times but that wont necessarily stop them stabbing you!!


pete

 

[taws6]

Okay, thanks for the advise.
I thought that was the case, and I already have a big mag light incase I 'break down' at night.
I know there are many items we could use as potential weapons, ie a pen,baseball bat (if accompanyied by a ball), a dog walking chain, unbrella, coins (who doesn't look wn when they are dropped, giving a perfect opertunity to pull a defensive strike?!) etc, I just needed to know about the EDIT !!...... Not so easy to find an excuss to bring a maglight out of the car if it is daylight though!!

 

[taws6]

How does mace spray stand?????

 

[C_Claycomb]

Guys, this is drifting into dodgy territory.

Lets put a cap on the rants, however mild. This isn't the place. The original poster's question has been answered fairly fully. To those answers I would like to add that I have been informed by folk working in the police and security business that if you walk the street with a 6-cell Maglite you also run a risk of being charged with carrying a weapon.

Don't take my word for it, don't take the word of random folk on this forum either. If you have to take advice on a forum about this stuff, be sure of your source. You could do worse than check the Legal section on British Blades (I should point out that they do not encourage self defence discussion on BB) and see if there are any similar threads, or potentially, drop one of the legal experts there a PM.

Not being a legal expert, I do not know how pertinent this may be, but it could be worth keeping in mind. On the US forums, where self defence is a popular subject, it has been pointed out repeatedly that stating on a forum exactly what you plan to do to someone should you be attacked may harm your legal defence if it ever comes to that. They say that such things can be used against you by showing intent...

 

[C_Claycomb]

Mace is very illegal. Don't go there.

Walking back from the pub with a bat and ball, or a dog chain - sans dog, can also get you in trouble should you end up using them on someone. What you could get away with passing a policeman on the street with could become a whole nother issue if you use it on someone and THEN have to justify carrying it with you.