Scottish camping By-law have your say

[johnnytheboy]

http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org...camping-byelaws-consultation/menu-id-611.html

Well folks this could be the thin end of the wedge for wild camping in scotland, this gives you the opertunity to have your say before they shut down the side of lomond!!!!!!

 

[w00dsmoke]

They should shut it down for camping, the trees are getting wrecked and the broken glass is appalling. I'm up there if not every week, every other week and its a disgrace.

If it's a wake up call we need then let this be it! We should be ashamed that we allow this kind of thing to happen anyway. I'm sick n tired of seeing our ancient trees getting wrecked and seeing firescars everywhere up there. There's no real resources out there to stop it, they have one cop dedicated to it, rangers with no powers... One person got charged for cutting down a tree there last year... so I suppose banning camping is the cheapest way of dealing with it.

 

[johnnytheboy]

Rather than shutting it down they should police it correctly, they push all of these folk out of the citys and think the problem has went away.

Its not a wake up call, all these plonkers will do will move somewhere else and that will get shut down as well until they revoke the wild camping laws.

 

[Shewie]

I've not seen much of the shoreline around Lomond but I have noticed the litter situation on the islands seems to be improving. I know there's folk going out there collecting it up now and any decent camper will do their bit to bring some out hopefully. The bare and baron well visited areas are not a good sight to see though, we carry in our own logs but the state of some trees are plain disturbing.
It's a shame it coming to this but I agree something has to be done.My only concern is the neds just moving onto somewhere else.

I'd hate to see Scotland reverse their access laws as it's become a second home to me over the last few years.

 

[nuggets]

just look at it as a ` social experiment` !! why arn,t the townies happy ???okenest:okenest:

 

[w00dsmoke]

Rather than shutting it down they should police it correctly, they push all of these folk out of the citys and think the problem has went away.

Its not a wake up call, all these plonkers will do will move somewhere else and that will get shut down as well until they revoke the wild camping laws.

Who pushes who out the cities?
Where will they move to? Some will move on but most won't.

I work with some of the Rangers in the park and you would not believe the rubbish and crap even through the winter in the National Park next to Balloch in addition to East Loch Lomondside. I go along several times a year and pick it up with them. Do you or many others who use the place do? Most don't.

Who is going to Police it? Who is willing to pay for the extra policing? The laws to prevent it are already in place but the problem is proving who is doing the damage. You know they are but for it to stand up in court it has to be seen and when there's only one dedicated cop in the the national park it's not gonna happen is it?And the cops in other villages/areas in the park don't have the resources to deal with it when they have more pressing matters.

The whole concept of a national park is flawed when it was created. It wasn't thought through. They have the staff to patrol and manage it but not the authority to enforce anything. That's the problem and the whole idea of a byelaw is because of Politics and Economics. 1/ Politics because no one has got the gumption to stand up and say we need a statutory provision where rangers are given similar responsibilities as police in a park context and 2/ Economics because they don't have the economic resources to actually police the park so it's easier to ban the problem behaviour.

Loch Chon gets the same treatment every spring summer and autumn and the FC and Police have not even come close to solving the problem other than by obstructing access close to the loch to prevent jet ski's and the like going on.

So let this be a wake up call to EVERYONE who cares deeply about our landscape and be forewarned that WE have a responsibility as citizens to campaign for what we beleive in so our glorious or inglorious leaders can ensure there are resources available for the things we care deeply enough about. But politics are not allowed to be discussed here...delete if you feel MODS. ;-)






So it is a wake up call.

 

[Miyagi]

I can see both sides of the argument here.

Unfortunately, it's come to the point where the byelaws are needed.

Irresponsible weekenders, whose aim is to get mullered out of sight of their home town Police force etc., are well on the way to ruining the area for everyone.

A public campaign in the media by the Gov't advocating responsible use, may well educate future generations. But that comes down to funding again.

The partygoers have forced the possibilty of these byelaws being used.

Many of us of a certain age will remember the Tom Weir ("Weir's Away") shows on STV. These gave us an appreciation for what was on our doorstep.

There are only a few similar shows on (once a month) that have covered this, but it needs more airtime.

Bring back Tom Weir's shows or if the TV folks are watching, here's an opportunity...

 

[johnnytheboy]

Of course we pick up rubbish, The Pike Anglers Alliance for Scotland of whom i belong to pick up that much rubbish they are looking at buying branded bin bags in bulk for club members. Personally dont think its a good idea but that shows how much rubbish we do collect.

They will move all over the place, the side of venachar/lubnaig for example is always full of idiots, how many rangers have been assaulted on those two lochs!!!! We have even filled a full boat on our trailer full of rubbish from along the banks of loch arkaig, and thats not exactly round the corner!!!

I totally agree with yor last statement woodsmoke, hopefully everyone will put effort into resposnding to the byelaw consultation rather than babbling on this thread

 

[Miyagi]

Jonnytheboy,

I responded to the consultation doc online when I first read your post.

Hopefully everyone that reads this thread will do the same.

All the best

Liam

 

[FreddyFish]

I strongly suggest that you read the proposal and respond, it makes a lot of sense. The area is being trashed. And from there research most of the problems are within 29mts of where people park.
So I hope this isn't the thin end of the wedge, to the end of wild camping in Scotland and I really don't think it would ever come to that. But as for lazy plonkers that don't respect what they have and are only prepared to walk 29mts.... then they deserve to be removed and fined.
Even if this proposal were to spread, I wouldn't have a problem with restricting 1/4 or 1/2 a mile within any road.
I love wild camping and would be totally happy to walk a couple of miles off road before setting up camp.

"Respect what we have and put off the plonkers" (I would put it stronger but I don't want to get banned)

 

[stuart f]

Without getting overly political,i think this is what should happen to offenders by the ,but if they choose to step over the line again,maybe a change of tact to might hit the right note,but knowing human nature they will persist so we would have to resort to this :twak:,so after being and getting out of casualty looking like and after having a chance to :bluThinki and on it,they may just

But alas there will be hardliners i would imagine,so all i can suggest is to make them before facing the:AR15firin squad.
Or am i

This post was a partly political broadcast brought to you by the Bushcrafters had enough party.

Just my humble thoughts.

Cheers Stuart.

 

[andybysea]

Deal with the people doing the damage,dont do as is usualy done,and stop everyone doing it(wild camping etc) fund the resources need to police the area's with larger fines imposed on those caught doing damage,why is it in this country everyone has to suffer because of the actions of a few(granted in this case it may not be a few but you get my point) this is my personnel view.

 

[gregorach]

Who would want to camp on that side of the loch anyway? I don't see this as much different to banning camping in the local supermarket car park or the hard shoulder on the motorway...

 

[Chainsaw]

According to the info about 300 car loads of people a month!! The NPA are also concerned about 'displacement' as they call it, where people will head to other places (some of which are already pretty bad) when this is introduced. Sadly due to the difficulty in policing the problem I think this may be the only option... Read the report carefully, there's a lot more detail on the actual problem with the policing there.

 

[verloc]

Deal with the people doing the damage,dont do as is usualy done,and stop everyone doing it(wild camping etc) fund the resources need to police the area's with larger fines imposed on those caught doing damage,why is it in this country everyone has to suffer because of the actions of a few(granted in this case it may not be a few but you get my point) this is my personnel view.

Here here,

A) agreed that the high use areas are a state - me and stooboy had quite an eye opener up at loch rannoch last summer.

B) the responsible users should not be punished for the bad actions of others.

eg, someone got stabbed with a knife in Liverpool - lets ban knives. The ones that carry knives to use as weapons are not all of a sudden going to not carry knives because they might get in trouble. The ones camping and leaving a mess are not suddenly going to stop camping or wrecking the places because they might get in trouble.

I was recently speaking to a landowner up here who reckons that the majority of the mess left behind is not by people camping but people turning up, getting wrecked and then going home. New byelaws would not stop that would they?

Its an old saying and Ive used it before but,

"Look people are shi**ing in swimming pools! Well best ban swimming pools"

Here's an idea for the high use areas around the lochs and so forth,
How about making more car parks with free but controlled access parking (controversial I know but wait for it). Most people who access these places (me included) arrive in a car. Allow them to take a chitty from a bloke in a box and they get to park their car in a proper car park.

You go and camp, enjoy yourself, come back to the car park and before the barrier does the whole going up to let you out thing, a second member of staff has a quick check of the place where you were camping. No tidy and damage free then no car gets released until it satisfies.

Or someone could give me a irate: privateers irate: licence and I will roam the lochside with my knife and torch - imagine the money to be made from the bounty of irresponsible land users :AR15firin

 

[gregorach]

Improved enforcement would obviously be a better answer - but do any of us really know how much it would cost? The idea of paying for it from fines is dubious, because if your enforcement actually works, then you can't afford to pay for it any more. Plus I simply don't see anything like the necessary amount of money being raised... You can't fine people more money than they can pay, and if you try, they just end up in jail - costing even more.

 

[gordonmac]

Who would want to camp on that side of the loch anyway? I don't see this as much different to banning camping in the local supermarket car park or the hard shoulder on the motorway...

Haha, well said mate!

 

[Paul_B]

You can't have improved enforcement without money and in the current financial climate where is that going to come from?

If most of the worst offences happen near the road then ban it near the roads. I thought this was the situation that you had up there in Scotland that you weren't allowed to camp in view of houses or other buildings and near roads. Personally I think you should not allow camping near roads at all. If you had to walk a few miles from roads then wouldn't that sort out the chavs from the responsible campers. Actually its the campers thats the problem not the backpackers who move away from the roads. The people who don't want to pay campsite fees so camp at the side of the road. Or the ppl who are out for a boozy time camping and treat it like they treat the cities and towns up and down the country. Make it harder for them and they should move on.

Thin end of the wedge? Ban one area will lead to all areas banned? Doubt it somehow. Unlike England you Scots have more tradition of land access so there will always be vast tracts of upland areas open to legal wild camping. I think that is the distinction here. Wild! Edge of the road is not wild so banning it is no big deal. I will always carry on wild camping, up in the hills away from roads and the maddening crowd. Besides, you can't ban what you can't find! I have a small green tent or a small green tarp. Either would be a bugger to spot in the hills. That's how I get away with not very wild camping in England. I've pitched in fields before now wothout problems. Pitch late, leave early you'll not have a problem.

 

[Paul_B]

In the Lakes we have the Angle Tarn near Patterdale. If any of you know it, that's where the outward bound people take kids. Whilst I support them they don't pick up their rubbish. Plus the anglers campe there and fish it. They are pretty bad too with their cans and bottles. Its such a beautiful wildcamping spot but is still reasonably close to where you can park your car so is a great little spot for late on a friday camp to take full advantage of a weekend up there. Having said that I don't like the idea of every stream in the area having toilet paper in it or near it within a few metres. I am sure the OB people are not supervising or instructing their charges in campcraft and good wildcamping hygene!

Sorry went off topic slightly but there's always trouble spots and they can't all be enforced so either live with it or ban it, you'll never stop it in the end. Blame the neds / chavs its always their fault.

 

[Mikey P]

They should shut it down for camping, the trees are getting wrecked and the broken glass is appalling. I'm up there if not every week, every other week and its a disgrace.

If it's a wake up call we need then let this be it! We should be ashamed that we allow this kind of thing to happen anyway. I'm sick n tired of seeing our ancient trees getting wrecked and seeing firescars everywhere up there. There's no real resources out there to stop it, they have one cop dedicated to it, rangers with no powers... One person got charged for cutting down a tree there last year... so I suppose banning camping is the cheapest way of dealing with it.

Couldn't agree more. Was there about a month ago and I couldn't believe the amount of litter, scorch marks, piles of human s***, etc. As for the argument to police it better, I suspect there will be an additional cost and a complaint from taxpayers saying 'Why aren't the authorities catching real criminals?'

I would hope that, if it's the 'thin end of the wedge', this is only the case for easily accessible locations, closer to the roads. Those who care about their environment are more likely to go further afield and those who don't care won't make the effort to go to the really wild places.

I'll stick with wild camping well away from the roads and avoid the neds.