Rucksack Design
- Thread starter 9InchNinja
- Start date
Great page here on ancient backpack solutions:
http://74fdc.wordpress.com/2012/08/...ks-applying-the-old-ways-to-the-new-journeys/
http://74fdc.wordpress.com/2012/08/...ks-applying-the-old-ways-to-the-new-journeys/
Some brilliant idea's on here, thanks chaps! I've got a few weeks before I need to send anything over to the company in question, so keep 'em coming and when I get time (and BT put my internet on finally!) I'll compile them into a list and see
exactly where we stand.
Thanks again!
exactly where we stand.
Thanks again!
Yup - that one is linked from the page I posted - plus others. Not cheap though. Bent steam formed bamboo is the way I'm thinking at the moment.
I had a go on a steam-formed bamboo bicycle about a year ago; the stuff is absolutely amazing, immensley strong, totally silent (no creaking and suchlike) and so light as to effectively weigh nothing. The joins were made using sockets formed from carbon fibre and the whole frame seemed indestructible............worth pursuing I reckon.................atb mac
I've found wand pockets and compression straps increasingly useful. I'm not so sure about row after row of tape stitched on to the pack body. It seems to me that they add weight and only a degree of flexibility. A 'clean' pack is ideal as the fabric is allowed to retain its strength without the numerous perforations brought about by bar tacking.
I think that zips - other than to attach pockets - are a not a good idea. They are an area of distinct weakness, are usually in the wrong place and compromise the weatherproofness of the pack; I've had a number of packs where zips, vertical and horizontal, feature and have never actually used them.
Detachable pockets can be really useful though judging their size can be a challenge. Should they hold your shelter? Stuff for the day - snacks, water, waterproofs, knife, firelighting stuff? This last is always a good idea to avoid opening the main compartment of your pack but, if you can get your water bottles into the wand pockets, how big do they actually need to be? It is important because it will have an influence over the capacity of the main compartment.
I do like - and now use - an external framed pack. Nowadays, they are really comfortable and practical but, continuing down the road of 'neat' ad 'clean' in rucksack design - something quite useful when living/working/travelling in the woods - an internally framed number is probably preferable.
I suppose I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Crux range of packs but with a number of bushcrafty concessions. I'll be very interested to see what comes out of your project!
If I were you I would start will an already tested and proven frame like one of the Kifaru offerings, or those by Stone Glacier or Mystery Ranch. Then see if any manufacturer will be willing to make a pack as per your designs that will fit on it. While pockets, zippers, and the like are well and good, ultimately, if the manufacturer you are using does not have a good frame system that works for you, the project is not going to turn out well.
granite gear do backpacks with different size hipbelts shoulder straps etc that are changable..
i like side pockets and ones without different compartments and zips like a sleeping bag comp as they block and take up room.
Rucksacks that are flatter to your back are easier to carry as seen in this years rucksack designs as compareed to last years. Wider not thicker !
One with a waterproof base and a waterproof top.
I'm a big convert to protex , so the sides made out of that
edit: after reading other posts
perhaps lots of attachment points for other attachments like ice axe holders etc
removable2x10l pockets to make a day pack like the vulcan.
edit 2
forgot to mention the best modification I have ever done on a rucksack, I took the shoulder strap base attachment points from the rucksack body and attached them to the hip belt by the centre buckle, so they ran directly flat down the chest, adjusting the angle they met the top of the pack at too ,like a harness set up. Far more comfotable on the shoulders, fancy forgetting that !
No compression straps and extra rubbish, but will go for hip belt and shoulder pockets or webbing
also an external frame rucksack MUST! convert into a deckchair.
i like side pockets and ones without different compartments and zips like a sleeping bag comp as they block and take up room.
Rucksacks that are flatter to your back are easier to carry as seen in this years rucksack designs as compareed to last years. Wider not thicker !
One with a waterproof base and a waterproof top.
I'm a big convert to protex , so the sides made out of that
edit: after reading other posts
perhaps lots of attachment points for other attachments like ice axe holders etc
removable2x10l pockets to make a day pack like the vulcan.
edit 2
forgot to mention the best modification I have ever done on a rucksack, I took the shoulder strap base attachment points from the rucksack body and attached them to the hip belt by the centre buckle, so they ran directly flat down the chest, adjusting the angle they met the top of the pack at too ,like a harness set up. Far more comfotable on the shoulders, fancy forgetting that !
No compression straps and extra rubbish, but will go for hip belt and shoulder pockets or webbing
also an external frame rucksack MUST! convert into a deckchair.
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Some great things on here, thanks!
I don't think the first company I approached are going to be able to do the things I want (like the fully adjustable back system for example) and I've spotted a load more designs that would ideally be a better starting point. I should not have looked at the Kifaru website! So I'm now undecided between going this route and getting something made, or buying one of the kifaru packs and getting a responsible adult to modify that for me.
I don't think the first company I approached are going to be able to do the things I want (like the fully adjustable back system for example) and I've spotted a load more designs that would ideally be a better starting point. I should not have looked at the Kifaru website! So I'm now undecided between going this route and getting something made, or buying one of the kifaru packs and getting a responsible adult to modify that for me.
For a personal non commercial bag I guess that would be okay but I imagine the lawyers would be looking carefully at anything too similar to their own bag...
Not strictly true I think you would need to change the design by at least 20% to be able to pass it off as your own design ,I make bespoke bags and pouches for military and civilians and do true one offs without charging a fortune but i cant compete on price with the mass produced stuff from the far east,but i do compete on quality/durability and design.
Kifaru have a brilliant website and looks very impressive ,have you actually handled one of their packs ? they are reasonably well made but over priced in my opinion and the turnaround time of 6 weeks is ridiculous.
I also have some 1606 down east frames they are not as heavy as they look and are well made and durable they do have a bit of flex but that's to be expected.
Kifaru have a brilliant website and looks very impressive ,have you actually handled one of their packs ? they are reasonably well made but over priced in my opinion and the turnaround time of 6 weeks is ridiculous.
I also have some 1606 down east frames they are not as heavy as they look and are well made and durable they do have a bit of flex but that's to be expected.
I'm sure there was some sort of way of defining what makes it 'different enough', thanks for clearing that up.
I share the thoughts about Kifaru, sure they look like the dogs danglies but with a very high cost and import duties slapped on top I don't think I could ever justify one. Out of interest do you use any computer software to sketch up bags and such like? I'd like to have a go making my own on the PC and get a few designs off paper.
If you can master Google sketch-up then im sure you will be well away ,it offers 2d and 3d modelling!
It also allows you to import other peoples work such as itw nexus 25mm side realse buckles etc so saves you having to draw them .
I don't have the time or patience to learn it, it is a very good a CAD package and best of all its free !
My advice would be to train your kids to do it, they can learn the stuff alot quicker and have the patience .
I find good old pen a paper is much quicker and more effective sometimes to get your point across quickly when discussing designs.
Im not a fan of paper mockups as it behaves differently to real fabric which can lead to false information.
It also allows you to import other peoples work such as itw nexus 25mm side realse buckles etc so saves you having to draw them .
I don't have the time or patience to learn it, it is a very good a CAD package and best of all its free !
My advice would be to train your kids to do it, they can learn the stuff alot quicker and have the patience .
I find good old pen a paper is much quicker and more effective sometimes to get your point across quickly when discussing designs.
Im not a fan of paper mockups as it behaves differently to real fabric which can lead to false information.
The most important factors in backpack design are the frame which bears the weight, and the belt and harness which transfer the weight to the carrier. Unless you are climbing and need the narrow/close to back characteristic of the Lowe type internal frame packs, an external frame system is much easier to design and fabricate. The frame needs to be measured to the individual, or an adjustable back length incorporated. The hip belt needs to be dimensionally stable enough to hold up to the maximum weight to be carried without collapsing and spilling the weight unevenly.
You don't really need a bag. Look at this for a good bushcrafty method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSUkSlrBZN4
1st of three
and this for a cheap light "modern" pack frame:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fOa98ry1o
Any old bag will do,
You don't really need a bag. Look at this for a good bushcrafty method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSUkSlrBZN4
1st of three
and this for a cheap light "modern" pack frame:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fOa98ry1o
Any old bag will do,
suburban bushwacker
Full Member
Good idea for a thread
The points about frame and belt fit are very well made, personally I'd add lots of load compression - I have still got a couple of Kifaru packs and a Mystery Ranch i'm very fond of, all of them let down by insufficient load stability and they have much better than most.
For the frame I too would go down the steamed bamboo route - very cool, easy to set up for, environmentally and wallet friendly.
For the kifaru price whiners -the packs aren't that expensive if you dont have to add VAT, and import tax to them. The lead-time seems to be a function of patrick and Mel expanding into the only market they could move into without needing to spend a fortune on advertising and distribution, military unit sales.
If you REALLY REALLY want a true bespoke pack McHale is your man, but even without traveling to Washington state for fittings he makes Kifaru and Mystery Ranch look cheap. And last time I looked he was his whole team, with waiting times described as ' you'll get it after I've made it'
Let us know how you get on
SBW
The points about frame and belt fit are very well made, personally I'd add lots of load compression - I have still got a couple of Kifaru packs and a Mystery Ranch i'm very fond of, all of them let down by insufficient load stability and they have much better than most.
For the frame I too would go down the steamed bamboo route - very cool, easy to set up for, environmentally and wallet friendly.
For the kifaru price whiners -the packs aren't that expensive if you dont have to add VAT, and import tax to them. The lead-time seems to be a function of patrick and Mel expanding into the only market they could move into without needing to spend a fortune on advertising and distribution, military unit sales.
If you REALLY REALLY want a true bespoke pack McHale is your man, but even without traveling to Washington state for fittings he makes Kifaru and Mystery Ranch look cheap. And last time I looked he was his whole team, with waiting times described as ' you'll get it after I've made it'
Let us know how you get on
SBW
Thanks for posting that up. Ill check out Google Sketchup and see how I fare. I'm only a uni student so no kids yet! (Thank goodness!).
I do rough work on paper but find things easier to work with in 3D, although I appreciate it won't necessarily reflect the properties of fabric. Its a start anyway.
In terms of wider backpack design, the function and activities for its intended use will shape the design away from what might be the 'best' for one application or another. For my needs and experience I'd have a lengthy back unless we're talking about anything under 30L. Internal frame is a must for me. Throw in a detachable waist belt and shoulder straps both on the wider side that are anchored really well. Load lifters are essential, and should take a real strain. Finally, ditch the Molle and have as few zips as possible!
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Molle has its uses and if your somone who want to adapt the pack for every trip then its nice to have ,but on the down side it adds alot of extra weight to the bag.
But if you know what you want and wont ever deviate from the original spec then sewn pouches are the way ahead.
and zips are often a weak point but sometimes unavoidable ,defiantly not a fan of the Cesarian zip across the bottom/middle of the pack this just screams (disaster waiting to happen ) Top loaders are by far the most reliable.
(Thinking out loud )
I wonder if there is a bag for all occasions or whether you need a bag for each occasion.
Out on the hills in the wind you dont want a whacking great bag hanging off your back acting like a sail . A larger less " lower profile " for the woods but narrow enough to squeeze through the trees and branches.
But if you know what you want and wont ever deviate from the original spec then sewn pouches are the way ahead.
and zips are often a weak point but sometimes unavoidable ,defiantly not a fan of the Cesarian zip across the bottom/middle of the pack this just screams (disaster waiting to happen ) Top loaders are by far the most reliable.
(Thinking out loud )
I wonder if there is a bag for all occasions or whether you need a bag for each occasion.
Out on the hills in the wind you dont want a whacking great bag hanging off your back acting like a sail . A larger less " lower profile " for the woods but narrow enough to squeeze through the trees and branches.
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