Romance or Madness (of The Long Distance Defender Owner)?

[Klenchblaize]

OK, so many of us love our Land-Rovers for their close association with the great outdoors. But, and its a BIG but, are the iconic lines of the Defender and what they 'say' about their owners sufficient compensation for our madness that is acceptance of a manufacturing process that, even in the 21st century, cannot address the basics of sustainability that is to ensure meaningful rust protection of both the chassis and key transmission components? Then there is the poor workmanship at production stage that has far more to do with water ingress problems than the generous door gaps that are required to permit flexing/articulation of vehicle when off road but lets not go there!

As British Red observed so succinctly why should you have to take a NEW Defender to a specialist under body treatment plant as your 1st stop after leaving the showroom??

For what its worth I've just written to Landrover UK about this very point and with a nice photograph that proves that my rear crossmember was painted after a nice base coat of rust had set in!!

We shall see.

Cheers

 

[helixpteron]

Its not by accident that manufacturers like Toyota and Nissan have attracted former devout Land and Range Rover owners.

Quality of components and manufacture is something which affects the owner, invariably outside of the warranty period.

Having driven and worked on Land Rovers, I would never own one, even as a gift.

Be interesting to see the response to your letter.

 

[EdS]

I'm a die hard LR fan but I'd not buy a new one.

 

[Laurentius]

Madness I am afraid, I have been cured now I drive a Pajero. (no jokes in Spanish please)

For what it's worth I never considered anything but with coil springs be a true land rover anyway, and once you decamp over to something like a disco, then you might as well buy Japanese.

I will say something for Mitsubishi, it may not have the rugged individualism of a classic landie, and may not have the edge on off road travel (but what does other than a Unimog anyway?) but my 18 year old Paj is a damn sight more reliable than an equivalently aged landie would be.

That being said if I had bottomless pockets, I would still chose a landie and a leaf sprung one at that

 

[helixpteron]

I still think that the best 'Off Road Vehicle' is a helicopter!

 

[mayobushcraft]

Nothing beats a Jeep Wrangler for comfort and off road ability. Landies are great off road but you need deep pockets. And after a few hours on the road you are worn out.

 

[lee2205]

the first vehicle i had to recover offroad was a landrover, didnt like them before then and still dont. they rust to quickly, handle like a boat, are unreliable and cost far to much for what you get. just to get one capable offroad will, imho, cost upwards of 10grand. however a good deal of the general public do seem to wear rose tinted specs as far as landies go which i put down to the 'british motor' aspectand of course the now much loved and iconic v8 engine (shame it was an american/gm design). a romantic attitude prehaps, definately a touch of lunicy though. now hiluxs and landcruisers are superb. ive had a hilux pickup and would rather give both my gentlemans plums up for soup making to get it back than spend 30grand on a landie
lee

 

[Laurentius]

All being said and done though a classic landie does have a certain something about it in the same way that the formula one cars of Stirling Moss's day have when compared to today's formula 1.

Though comparing a landie to formula 1 has to be the wierdest comparison I have ever made, I was lucky to exceed 50 mph in mine, even the lambretta scooter I once owned could do better than that.

 

[86inch]

I think everyone is missing something here....
Land Rovers, S1/2/2A/3/90/110/Defenders have pretty much over the last 60 years been profitable vehicles to make. Though labour intensive, they sell for a small premium over "equivalent" Japanese vehicles and in the UK, this is really pickups (You cannot compare a Pajero, Landcruiser etc to a Utility Land Rover as their competitor is a Discovery/Range Rover i.e. they are not utility vehicles).
There are varied reasons why Land Rovers sell very well, from endless customisation possibilities (MOD/Utility companies) to Foresty, Farmworkers etc who depend on their ability, plus those who like the iconic image of the vehicles. Another reason they sell very well, is the extremely high residuals. These owners know they can buy and run one, and at the end of the period of ownership they will sell them on for a very high premium than if they had bought a pickup. Total cost of sale is therefore less.
In many cases this is a business or financial decision on their part and patently justified by the prices paid for used Defenders these days.
I for one would rather take the "percieved" reliability risk of a 110 or 130 pickup over a Toyota, knowing that in five or even 10 years i will receive a healthy part of the initial outlay when i sell it. This would be a business decision rather that a passionate one.

Land Rover as a company really should look after their Defender customers better, but with a healthy profit margin and sales pipeline, why would they?

I wouldn't buy a new one, but i run an older (1996) 110CSW that for its years is extremely reliable and i won't be changing anytime soon - OK thats a slightly passionate statement, but even taking the above into account, the amount i will lose in depreciation will be small.

And for anyone who thinks i'm anti-Japanese, not so. We have had Subarus over the years and all were great, except the Outback i had, which at 4 years old suffered engine failure and a £2.5K bill came my way! So it's not just LR, any company can get it wrong.

 

[adderrustler]

bang on what people are missing is that landrovers are a utility vehicle, not some attempt at making a comfy big car usable off road. thats why there are rangerovers etc.
landrovers are cheap on parts if you know where to go.
also if they are serviced and looked after then they are as reliable as anything else, there component parts are stronger by far, the MOD'S use and re-use over the years has proved this time and time again, every now and then they will change but then they go back to landie's. if you want comfort with some off road capability then buy a range rover or a jap. if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.
most of the japs si have seen havent even had an oil change in 3-4 years.

Defenders / series were not designed for motorway journeys they are workhorses.

 

[Klenchblaize]

All very true but that doesn't make it acceptable for a mil-spec chassis and drive components to be alive with rust when leaving the factory and all but for a ha’porth of tar or pride in workmanship. The lack thereof being the message conveyed when encountering such a easy win defect along with those legendary leaks than CAN be cured but with far less hassle whilst still on the assembly line.

Cheers

 

[jungle_re]

bang on what people are missing is that landrovers are a utility vehicle, not some attempt at making a comfy big car usable off road. thats why there are rangerovers etc.
landrovers are cheap on parts if you know where to go.
also if they are serviced and looked after then they are as reliable as anything else, there component parts are stronger by far, the MOD'S use and re-use over the years has proved this time and time again, every now and then they will change but then they go back to landie's. if you want comfort with some off road capability then buy a range rover or a jap. if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.
most of the japs si have seen havent even had an oil change in 3-4 years.

Defenders / series were not designed for motorway journeys they are workhorses.

I never understand the military connection as most who have had to drive em will tell you howw unreliable they are and the vast majority of VM's will only offer you profanities if you mention land rover. That said when they did work they worked well off road though the 90's and 110's i found to be better offroad than the replacement wolfs

All said and done they look the S*te and thats what sell i reckon most of the time nowaday the design epitimises ruggedness even if it doesnt acheive it

 

[Laurentius]

I think everyone is missing something here....
Land Rovers, S1/2/2A/3/90/110/Defenders have pretty much over the last 60 years been profitable vehicles to make. Though labour intensive, they sell for a small premium over "equivalent" Japanese vehicles and in the UK, this is really pickups (You cannot compare a Pajero, Landcruiser etc to a Utility Land Rover as their competitor is a Discovery/Range Rover i.e. they are not utility vehicles). .

I think 86" has a point there, maybe there is too much conversation at cross purposes on this thread.

When I talk about my experience of Land Rover I talk about driving a 30 year old vehicle, much used and abused, so you can't expect that to even compare with a relatively recent Defender.

Certainly my youthful 18 year old Paj is not in the same category, it has slightly less ground clearance, and there is not as much room inside for the proverbial kitchen sink, and I do not think the chassis is quite as rugged, but when the tin worm sets in, you can't really call a Landie chassis "rugged" can you?

That said there really was no excuse for such features in the older landies as heaters that don't warm anything up, seats no better than in the nineteen forties, doors that don't fit.

The Landie was also chronically underpowered, my Paj is much more economical, I suspect more so than an equivalent TD engine would have been as a replacement in my Landie.

When comparing the Paj I really should be comparing it with road cars, like the old Volvo Estates I used to thing they were big until I parked my Paj next to one. I've driven all sorts over the years and I have to say that for it's age there is a lot less wrong with the Paj than there would be for an equivalent Landie.

Nobody get me wrong, I am still in love with Landies, but they are something of an aquired taste I think.

 

[avalon]

The Land Rover is now a rare sight in the Australian Outback as it is no longer considered reliable enough or affordable enough by most people. Toyota's, on the other hand, are everywhere, closely followed by Nissan's, Mitsubishi's and several other Japanese cars.

 

[86inch]

The Land Rover is now a rare sight in the Australian Outback as it is no longer considered reliable enough or affordable enough by most people. Toyota's, on the other hand, are everywhere, closely followed by Nissan's, Mitsubishi's and several other Japanese cars.

But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)

 

[swagman]

But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)

That is because in the 60s and 70s thats all they had in oz but once they got
the japanese inports landys bad build quality and unreliabilaty had no chance.

The Toyota landcruiser has just been voted most reliable 4x4 and has been tested in the Australian outback not in Bradford or Dorset.
You trust your life with a vehicle in the outback .

 

[avalon]

But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)

...and a film crew in Toyota's (probably).

 

[86inch]

That is because in the 60s and 70s thats all they had in oz but once they got
the japanese inports landys bad build quality and unreliabilaty had no chance.

110's only came out in 1983.. It was really the exchange rate that was the death knell for Land Rover in Oz.

 

[swagman]

110's only came out in 1983.. It was really the exchange rate that was the death knell for Land Rover in Oz.

Its like all army gear the cheapest bidder gets it thats why the oz army used
landrovers.
As for the exchange rate killeng them in oz mmmmmmmm i think from the
guys i have spoken to in the outback the reliability problems has not helped
any.

 

[British Red]

You see I'm with Klenchblaize about this I cannot rencile these statements:

landrovers are a utility vehicle

if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.

with

my rear crossmember was painted after a nice base coat of rust had set in

Utility vehicles need to be MORE corrosion resistant and have BETTER build quality than an occasional off roader. After having LRs back to the "series" days I'm hardly inexperienced with them, and, the build quality is just plain rubbish.

To me the acid test is what people who need to be offroad professionally drive. Most farmers, gamekeepers, fencers etc. I know drive jap trucks for utility now. Things like a heater that works do matter to them when they are out in their vehicle for 12 hours at a time as does the fact that they cannot waste time constantly fixing and tinkering with the latest thing to fall off.

I don't deny the off road capability of the LR but that doesn't alter the fact that to be good, it has to be consistently good and not keep needing fixing. Nor should it already be corroded when driven off the forecourt.

Why they just don't invest some time in proper anti corrosion treatments and decent QC escapes me. Its a great design, constructed badly with lack of care and lack of thought.

If far eastern imports can offer 7 year warranties now, why can't LR? Because the bills would bankrupt them!

Red