Rich Hall and American Indians

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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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It is not a question of who is the most inventive nor any assumption of superiority but as one who has been interested in economic history since discussing it with my Father when a boy I find it fascinating to wonder at why Sub-Saharan Africans developed their own village iron industries and others did not, for example. 1492 Columbus arrives, 200 years later big push into the American hinterland begins and in all that time and later technology has not caught on amongst the Indigenes.

As to English culture, one can sense how uneasy such a discussion makes people now because of, for example, assumptions that one is suggesting any exclusive treatment of music etc. It is wonderful that the world's cultural output is available to us.
 

Fadcode

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Feb 13, 2016
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If you look around the world at the indigenous people of the continents,( the natives, rather than the modern immigrants) you will find that they only embrace modern technology and inventions where necessary, most are quite happy to maintain their social and working structures as they were in times gone by, it is only where man and modernity have been forced on them and they have been forced to change, If you look at the Aborigines of Australia many still live as their ancestors did, mainly living off the land and foraging,using the techniques they have been taught through their ancestors.Other peoples were forced to change in order to survive, the Native Indian tribes of North America were forced not only from their lands but were facing extinction through the edicts of the US Government who sanctioned the slaughtering of the buffalo, forced the railways through, the land rush, etc, absolute criminal acts.
In reality it is nice to see and know that around the world there are small pockets of people who haven't and don't want to change or live in modern times, the Laplanders who tend their reindeer herds, the Mongols, the nomadic tribes in Arabia these are the true heroes of today, the survivors, who have the knowledge to survive, we may think of them as luddites, but secretly we admire and would like nothing better than to join them and get out of this rat race.
 

Klenchblaize

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 25, 2005
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Greensand Ridge
In reality it is nice to see and know that around the world there are small pockets of people who haven't and don't want to change or live in modern times, the Laplanders who tend their reindeer herds, the Mongols, the nomadic tribes in Arabia these are the true heroes of today, the survivors, who have the knowledge to survive, we may think of them as luddites, but secretly we admire and would like nothing better than to join them and get out of this rat race.

A great post and perfect explanation for the sub plot that is Bushcraft in the 21st Century?

K
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Complicated though Santayana, there appears to be provision for the supply of secular textbooks from state funds in religious schools, among other limited items.Then there are the tax breaks for churches which must help where the pastor does not pay himself a vast salary.

Agreed, it's a complicated issue. Pastors don't set their own salaries here. In the evengelical denominations the congregations set their salaries. in the liturgical ones (most anyway) the next higher body (diocese, synod, etc.) usually does. In the Mormon Church the pastors are all part time and must support themselves with a day job.

When you say there's a provision for funding secular textbooks and/or supplies are you talking about the US or the UK? If the US, do you have a reference? I'm not denying it's possible, just haven't heard of it.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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.........Santaman 2000:



The religious right have been trying to undo this for years, but Betsy De Vos and her ilk are now in positions of huge power http://www.motherjones.com/politics...-schools-vouchers-charter-education-secretary - it will interesting just how far they get.

Yes we've been trying. Most unsuccessfully, to simply allow prayer back in school. Any further religion in school (public schools) would cause division due to out wide range of denominations (we don't have a single national church, nor is it even as simple as dividing between Catholics and Protestants)
 
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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
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If you look at the Aborigines of Australia many still live as their ancestors did, mainly living off the land and foraging,using the techniques they have been taught through their ancestors.
Yewat?

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

I really don't want things to turn political, but as an ex-Aussie, I have to set you straight here. Very very few Indigenous Australians 'live off the land'. There is almost no land that they are permitted to use for that purpose. Australia is a food-poor environment and living off the land requires a very nomadic roaming lifestyle that really isn't compatible with the modern land use and ownership.
 

Fadcode

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Feb 13, 2016
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Yewat?

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

I really don't want things to turn political, but as an ex-Aussie, I have to set you straight here. Very very few Indigenous Australians 'live off the land'. There is almost no land that they are permitted to use for that purpose. Australia is a food-poor environment and living off the land requires a very nomadic roaming lifestyle that really isn't compatible with the modern land use and ownership.

There are still tribes (if I may call them that, that still maintain their heritage and live off the land, many tribes have been given there land back(or parts of them) and can live off the land if they want, the area around Alice Springs is a good example, in fact all the schools in this are actually teach the language of the Arrernte , as there about 28,000 Arrernte living in this area, another Aboriginal Tribe is the Kunibidji who were given their land back, and although its up in Arnhem land, they survive by hunting and foraging, Now I will agree that many of the rights of the Aborigines have been taken away, and there are many areas they are not allowed to do their thing in, but thankfully times are changing and Governments are now realising that what they have been doing is no longer socially acceptable and in many cases are reversing the damage they have done, we don't have the skills that the indigenous people have, and it may seem impossible to us that anyone can survive in these harsh environments but they can and they do,
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,246
33
North Yorkshire, UK
There is a massive difference between 'given ownership of land' and being allowed to live a traditional lifestyle on that land.

Some, a very, very small number are managing to maintain heritage. I dispute that they are able to live off the land.

I would like to believe that you are correct but I think you are misled. Please, if you have some sources of information that can prove me wrong, show them to me.
 

Fadcode

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Feb 13, 2016
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There is a lot of information relating to this subject, here is a sample relating to one faction, coincidently most of the land hand back was a result of the nuclear tests in the 50's and although they wont admit that it did any harm to the Aborigines that were affected, I think (in my opinion) it was a factor in handing back a lot of land and appeasing the aborigines, but here is a fact about one tribe, which clearly states that they are living as their ancestors did, and I am not saying that they are 100% living off the fat of the land, but they are doing their best to maintain their traditions of hunting and gathering,

Pila Nguru
The Spinifex people, or Pila Nguru, have their traditional lands situated in the Great Victoria Desert, in the Australian state of Western Australia, adjoining the border with South Australia, to the north of the Nullarbor Plain. They maintain in large part their traditional hunter-gatherer existence within the territory, over which their claims to Native title and associated collective rights were recognised by a 28 November 2000 Federal Court decision. The Australian Royal Commission was unable to determine if Pila Nguru people had been exposed to damaging levels of radiation from fallout after the nuclear testing near Maralinga in the 1950s.

Now there is , in my opinion, an important factor in this, and sorry to say its because the settlers and immigrants into Australia, and Northern America as well as other places throughout the world, would never accept that the indigenous people had any rights whatsoever, and were basically a nuisance to the modernisation of these places,(look at the way we acted in India) that thankfully has now changed, but think of the hypocrisy of it in the past, in the US, "all men are created equal" unless you are black or you are an Indian.

To all those who try to survive, Good Luck to you,
To those who try to stop them, to Hell with you.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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Start with Board of Education v Allen Santaman. Or just Google USA secular textbooks for religious schools.
 

Fadcode

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Isn't it law in the US that every child (even if their status is illegal immigrant) is entitled to an education?
if it is, then no matter which school they attend they would be entitled to a subsidy from the government, also if it is a religious school, Who pays the teachers salary?
 

Leshy

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Jun 14, 2016
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Wiltshire
And now for something completely different...
And a rest from the discussion...









An Apache man who needs no introduction

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Whilst some were tribesmen and warriors , others were clearly royalty ...

Chief Bone Necklace from the Oglala Lakota

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Praise for the Great Spirit and Spirit of the Mountain

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" Arrow maker " a Ojibwa brave

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Charles American horse , son of American horse , Choctaw

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These are just a few pictures of a wonderful collection and body of photography work by Edward S. Curtis.


The Edward S. Curtis Collection offers a unique glimpse into Curtis's work with indigenous cultures. The more than 2,400 silver-gelatin photographic prints were acquired by the Library of Congress through copyright deposit from about 1900 through 1930. About two-thirds (1,608) of these images were not published in Curtis's multi-volume work, The North American Indian. The collection includes a large number of individual or group portraits, as well as traditional and ceremonial dress, dwellings and other structures, agriculture, arts and crafts, rites and ceremonies, dances, games, food preparation, transportation, and scenery. More than 1,000 of the photographs have been digitized and individually described.



Tribe index here :
https://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/ecur/tribeindex.html


The whole collection here
https://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?st=grid&co=ecur

Thought I'd share.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Case law doesn't expire so what judgement has replaced it?

Case law (judicial decisions) is based on statutory law current at the time of the case. Almost nothing from that long ago is still current. Back then the normal school day began with the Pledge of Allegiance and a devotional and prayer before class in public schools. Today the Pledge is still normal but no longer mandatory to participate. Devotion and prayer have been abolished. Your own reference shows the decisions evolving away from allowing it the later the decisions are.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,810
1,028
64
Florida
Isn't it law in the US that every child (even if their status is illegal immigrant) is entitled to an education?
if it is, then no matter which school they attend they would be entitled to a subsidy from the government, also if it is a religious school, Who pays the teachers salary?

No it's not a law. At least not a federal law, but there are probably a few states where it is (the federal government doesn't run education here)

Who pays for the teachers salaries at religious schools? They'rfe private schools so the Church or denomination that owns the school of course (heavily dependent on the students tuition which is paid by the parents) Some such schools are multi denominational and are even more dependent on the tuition fees and donations from various local congregations.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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God only coming onto the currency and the Oath in the fifties? Shows evolving in what direction?
 

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